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Post by Melodist on Sept 22, 2017 19:57:40 GMT
Hello. I used to lurk on the old forum. (What happened, by the way?) The new forum looks great. I'm glad to see people flocking over. Lately I've been teaching myself orchestration and would appreciate some tips about how to improve this latest arrangement of mine. O Holy Night.pdf (43.75 KB) picosong.com/wwbXB/The simplicity of the arrangement is deliberate. No double octaves, instrument doubling or counterlines. The purpose of this practice was to experiment with the texture of the accompaniment. Do you think it works? I also have a question regarding the cello and bass. For most of the piece, they are playing the same note, but at times have to separate an octave due to the cello's range. Is this acceptable in the professional world? |
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 22, 2017 20:07:08 GMT
It seemed the old forum was going to close so I set up this one and a lot of regulars followed over...
Ok, orchestration. Cello and bass playing the same note an octave apart is a tried and tested method, much found in strictly Classical composers like Mozart. Sometimes cello and bass would have one stave between them. I would keep them at that octave separation rather than have them play the same note.
Instead of dividing the violas for the harmony and having the melody unison on violins, could you give the upper viola part to 2nd violins and leave the melody to 1st? You possibly run the risk of an underpowered accompaniment (or an overpowered melody).
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Post by Melodist on Sept 22, 2017 20:28:43 GMT
The 2nd violins/violas suggestion sounds good.
I'm aware that the double bass was originally used to double the cello an octave lower, but it doesn't work in this arrangement. If I try to maintain an octave, either the cello winds up being too high or the bass is too low. Perhaps changing the key will resolve this issue. I'm still not sure whether or not what I did is poor. I haven't read enough scores to know yet.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 22, 2017 21:04:35 GMT
Do you know that bass is notated an octave higher than played? This can lead to problems when writing if not taken into account, as if you write to what you hear the bass will be very low in notation and will appear to be out of playable range. When finished working in my DAW the first thing I do when scoring is raise the entire bass part an octave so it occupies the correct position on the stave. Not being good at reading music I can't assess your score on whether it's too high or low, but I'd be surprised if that's the case. Your violas are right at the bottom of the range so you could probably bring the whole thing up at least a tone or two. Bear in mind that open strings can't be vibrato'd so by forcing players to use a low open string you're removing possibilities there. I don't think it's poor - as far as I can judge from midi the balance sounds pretty good, and strings are very forgiving. They blend together well across the range and instruments, no-one's going to throw you out hearing that live (assuming it's all in range). But you can always make a good orchestration better in some small way. There's bowing slurs to consider next . . . The 2nd violins/violas suggestion sounds good. I'm aware that the double bass was originally used to double the cello an octave lower, but it doesn't work in this arrangement. If I try to maintain an octave, either the cello winds up being too high or the bass is too low. Perhaps changing the key will resolve this issue. I'm still not sure whether or not what I did is poor. I haven't read enough scores to know yet. |
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Post by Bob Porter on Sept 22, 2017 21:33:52 GMT
Here's my thought. Leave the first violin alone. Have the second violin do harmony for the most part. Have the viola do the upper arpeggios. Cello do the lower. Bass always does the root of the arpeggios. Bass, cello, viola play pizz until the "fall on your knees" part. At which time they change to full chords in some kind of driving rhythm. Or at least change the arpeggio somewhat.
Actually, at that point Dave and I would bring in percussion and full brass featuring soaring horns. Just kidding. Not really.
If you are doing more than one verse, this song lends itself to all kinds of possibilities. But it's hard not to over develop it too soon.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 22, 2017 21:55:29 GMT
That'd work too obv. As long as the balance is right, you can do it in all sorts of ways and the string's natural character will carry it. There is no situation in which 80 horns are not appropriate. Not a one. Here's my thought. Leave the first violin alone. Have the second violin do harmony for the most part. Have the viola do the upper arpeggios. Cello do the lower. Bass always does the root of the arpeggios. Bass, cello, viola play pizz until the "fall on your knees" part. At which time they change to full chords in some kind of driving rhythm. Or at least change the arpeggio somewhat. Actually, at that point Dave and I would bring in percussion and full brass featuring soaring horns. Just kidding. Not really. If you are doing more than one verse, this song lends itself to all kinds of possibilities. But it's hard not to over develop it too soon. |
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Post by Tim Marko on Sept 22, 2017 23:03:40 GMT
Perhaps try taking a different approach to the song. What you have is pretty similar to most of the arrangements out there. Try using some sustained chords or change how the arpeggios move.
Do take the time to study scores while listening and follow along. You start to see how other composers utilize the different voices.
Dave, not to pick nits, and you're basically right. The bass sounds an octave lower than written. I know it's a semantic difference, but the player doesn't actually play an octave lower.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 23, 2017 1:08:18 GMT
how DARE you So the issue was I said it plays lower but correct wording is sounds lower? Dave, not to pick nits, and you're basically right. The bass sounds an octave lower than written. I know it's a semantic difference, but the player doesn't actually play an octave lower. |
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Post by Melodist on Sept 23, 2017 2:02:31 GMT
Just to clear things up - yes, I am aware of the notation of the bass. I come from classical music so these sorts of things aren't really an issue. I was just concerned with the usage of the two instruments going from the same note (pitch) to an octave apart (same staff line). Both are utilized in classical music, but I wasn't sure about mixing the two in the same context. Another source has confirmed to me that this does indeed happen, so I'm content.
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Post by Melodist on Sept 23, 2017 2:04:06 GMT
Here's my thought. Leave the first violin alone. Have the second violin do harmony for the most part. Have the viola do the upper arpeggios. Cello do the lower. Bass always does the root of the arpeggios. Bass, cello, viola play pizz until the "fall on your knees" part. At which time they change to full chords in some kind of driving rhythm. Or at least change the arpeggio somewhat. Actually, at that point Dave and I would bring in percussion and full brass featuring soaring horns. Just kidding. Not really. If you are doing more than one verse, this song lends itself to all kinds of possibilities. But it's hard not to over develop it too soon. Interesting. I will experiment with this. |
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Post by king2b on Sept 23, 2017 8:05:45 GMT
It all depends what you are looking for in the task. There are many ways you can approach working with this piece. The first thing that I would bring to task is the lack of variation in the work you have done. Strings are capable of much more expression and you are not using that feature at all. There is no depth to this work at the moment either.
Could I suggest that you work on the opening 8 bars or so and challenge yourself to orchestrate these bars in 4 ways and post that work?
Just an idea.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 23, 2017 8:31:18 GMT
Sorry if you already knew this stuff - there's no point offering feedback without asking often basic questions to find out where you are. Just to clear things up - yes, I am aware of the notation of the bass. I come from classical music so these sorts of things aren't really an issue. I was just concerned with the usage of the two instruments going from the same note (pitch) to an octave apart (same staff line). Both are utilized in classical music, but I wasn't sure about mixing the two in the same context. Another source has confirmed to me that this does indeed happen, so I'm content. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 8:36:48 GMT
Melodist When first seeing your forum name I thought I'd misread it as Methodist. Then I listened to your piece and realised I hadn't made a mistake. For this day and age though, it's not very happy-clappy.  Sorry for not addressing your header post, as your following replies seem like contradiction. You have a classical music background? Ray |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 8:37:40 GMT
great minds Dave? |
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Post by Melodist on Sept 23, 2017 13:04:13 GMT
Melodist When first seeing your forum name I thought I'd misread it as Methodist. Then I listened to your piece and realised I hadn't made a mistake. For this day and age though, it's not very happy-clappy. Sorry for not addressing your header post, as your following replies seem like contradiction. You have a classical music background? Ray Not officially; I have no formal training. Also, I hope you don't think I wrote this piece.  |
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