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Post by Bob Porter on Apr 10, 2019 1:43:11 GMT
It doesn't? Drat!
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Post by driscollmusick on Apr 11, 2019 14:21:45 GMT
Mike, the piece is great. As always, the details are impeccable. I'm going to throw in one more composer: Barber, specifically Knoxville, Summer of 1915. I take it that the inspiration is Holmside (homeside?) in its current state, but there is a certain generosity in your animal depictions that made me think of childhood--the way small moments seem more significant and mysterious. Like you said, though, this isn't a piece *for* children; it's more akin to how we adults remember it (or can feel it again if we allow ourselves). My favorite movement is the fourth ("Twilight, Moonlight and Stars"). I consider it the real *heart* of the piece and was quite moved throughout (Rehearsal 19, in particular, is marvelous). If I have a constructive suggestion, it's that this movement occurs too early. I kept anticipating one of the later movements to plumb the same depths, but they never did. That's fine, of course, but it left me feeling less emotionally engaged in the large-form structure than I think I would have been otherwise. In contrast, the second-to-last movement ("The Plake") felt more like it was setting a scene, and therefore could have occurred much earlier. My first thought was to try switching these two movements? I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but at the very least, I would suggest playing around with the movement structure at the highest level. Thank you John. Your description of the piece is so right, I'll use it for the CD liner when the LSO recording is released if that's ok (don't worry...not gonna happen..:-( The dramas and adventures of all the animals are writ large but I hope that the symphonic/developmental aspect will hold the less imaginative or too grown up also. I've been (and still am) pondering your very valid suggestion about placement of mvts. My problem is that m3 cadences nicely into m4 and it also has an emotional resonance because at home, we often watch the badger and the fox at twilight going about their business. Soon after, on a clear night we see the milky way, hence the order. Regardless of that, there is validity in your suggestion and I guess the obvious solution is to shunt both mvts deeper into the piece. I do feel as though the tempo pacing is good overall with fast and slows mingling quite well. Is it the 'Plake's' open ending that makes you feel the way you do about it, or is it the music itself? I don't know the Barber, but will listen later to it as I am a big fan of his, I have a lot of his music on Naxos releases. Thanks again John for your time, it is a big ask. You have full rights to crib this, although to me it's just stating the obvious! The classic recording of the Barber is Leontyne Price, though there is an amazing live performance on YouTube (piano version w/ tenor). I listened again to "The Plake". The music is very peaceful and intimately scored, so it feels like a relatively quiet, self-contained interlude that is not otherwise tied to the music that surrounds it. Contrasts like this seem like a more effective approach at the beginning ("here, dear listener, are all the different worlds I am conjuring"), but when you assemble these together into 30 minutes of music, my view is that there is the opportunity to shape it all into something greater--an arc that punches you in the gut by the end (as Bob might say). Somehow building in more anticipation for the release of the big finale, when you will finally bring it all home. Anyway, I don't have a specific recommendation here, just thoughts for consideration. I've said elsewhere on this forum that I believe long-form structure is one of the hardest things to do as a composer and it just happens to be something I've been thinking about a lot recently. There are many greats who didn't always (or ever) get it right... |
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Post by gx on Apr 13, 2019 5:37:20 GMT
"except Delius who is not in my top 10 to say the least...way too greasy for me! " Greasy? never heard that one…  )) I must confess, it's been along time since I heard Delius.. but i remember thinking it was a mix of french and english..leaning more french perhaps… I probably shouldn't have mentioned, as I felt a little uncertain about that one… but 'greasy'?  Poor Delius developed blindness though a momentary act of indiscretion …. if you know what I mean… which he regretted.. though he does go on about how it liberated him from 'Paper Music'… Meaning I suppose, He thought composers had relied too visually inclined when writing…. and so his ear was set free from all that, implying that the ear is more sincere than the eye… fwiw… the Chianti has been flowing tonight, so I can't be responsible for the ancillary nature of my thoughts.. |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 15, 2019 9:10:51 GMT
You have full rights to crib this, although to me it's just stating the obvious! The classic recording of the Barber is Leontyne Price, though there is an amazing live performance on YouTube (piano version w/ tenor). I listened again to "The Plake". The music is very peaceful and intimately scored, so it feels like a relatively quiet, self-contained interlude that is not otherwise tied to the music that surrounds it. Contrasts like this seem like a more effective approach at the beginning ("here, dear listener, are all the different worlds I am conjuring"), but when you assemble these together into 30 minutes of music, my view is that there is the opportunity to shape it all into something greater--an arc that punches you in the gut by the end (as Bob might say). Somehow building in more anticipation for the release of the big finale, when you will finally bring it all home. Anyway, I don't have a specific recommendation here, just thoughts for consideration. I've said elsewhere on this forum that I believe long-form structure is one of the hardest things to do as a composer and it just happens to be something I've been thinking about a lot recently. There are many greats who didn't always (or ever) get it right... The Plake is indeed an interlude. It does have a connection with everything else in that it is about a large pond we have - large enough that we jokingly called it a lake, which it isn't of course, hence the portmanteau. A place for quiet reflection. After much consideration and a few shunts around to see what worked, I am going to keep it as is. I do feel there is a balance in the pacing and the emotional aspect, always a subjective one, has a logic for me. The finale does indeed bring everything together in rollicking fashion in the coda to give a feeling of completeness and closure. Your thoughts on this are much appreciated John and it is indeed a difficult aspect to get large scale structure right, I wrestle with this every time. An extra-musical narrative helps in this regard (as you will know with your opera) but for absolute music, especially a work with several movements, one has to rely on instinct and experience more than anything else I feel. Thanks for the Barber link, Price's version is beautiful and the piece is superb. |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 15, 2019 9:22:45 GMT
"except Delius who is not in my top 10 to say the least...way too greasy for me! " Greasy? never heard that one… )) I must confess, it's been along time since I heard Delius.. but i remember thinking it was a mix of french and english..leaning more french perhaps… I probably shouldn't have mentioned, as I felt a little uncertain about that one… but 'greasy'? Poor Delius developed blindness though a momentary act of indiscretion …. if you know what I mean… which he regretted.. though he does go on about how it liberated him from 'Paper Music'… Meaning I suppose, He thought composers had relied too visually inclined when writing…. and so his ear was set free from all that, implying that the ear is more sincere than the eye… fwiw… the Chianti has been flowing tonight, so I can't be responsible for the ancillary nature of my thoughts.. I'd agree that there is a Franco/English flavour to his work - the English contribution being the harmonic equivalent to fish and chips (eh???). By greasy, I mean his chromaticism, although I do like' On Hearing the first Cuckoo in Spring' and remember listening to Sea Drift once and liking it. Didn't he have an amanuensis latterly? I'm sure I once read of another composer who had syphilis too but can't remember who, any ideas? EDIT...was it Schuman??? |
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Post by driscollmusick on Apr 15, 2019 17:26:51 GMT
You have full rights to crib this, although to me it's just stating the obvious! The classic recording of the Barber is Leontyne Price, though there is an amazing live performance on YouTube (piano version w/ tenor). I listened again to "The Plake". The music is very peaceful and intimately scored, so it feels like a relatively quiet, self-contained interlude that is not otherwise tied to the music that surrounds it. Contrasts like this seem like a more effective approach at the beginning ("here, dear listener, are all the different worlds I am conjuring"), but when you assemble these together into 30 minutes of music, my view is that there is the opportunity to shape it all into something greater--an arc that punches you in the gut by the end (as Bob might say). Somehow building in more anticipation for the release of the big finale, when you will finally bring it all home. Anyway, I don't have a specific recommendation here, just thoughts for consideration. I've said elsewhere on this forum that I believe long-form structure is one of the hardest things to do as a composer and it just happens to be something I've been thinking about a lot recently. There are many greats who didn't always (or ever) get it right... The Plake is indeed an interlude. It does have a connection with everything else in that it is about a large pond we have - large enough that we jokingly called it a lake, which it isn't of course, hence the portmanteau. A place for quiet reflection. After much consideration and a few shunts around to see what worked, I am going to keep it as is. I do feel there is a balance in the pacing and the emotional aspect, always a subjective one, has a logic for me. The finale does indeed bring everything together in rollicking fashion in the coda to give a feeling of completeness and closure. Your thoughts on this are much appreciated John and it is indeed a difficult aspect to get large scale structure right, I wrestle with this every time. An extra-musical narrative helps in this regard (as you will know with your opera) but for absolute music, especially a work with several movements, one has to rely on instinct and experience more than anything else I feel. Thanks for the Barber link, Price's version is beautiful and the piece is superb. Re: long-form, it's funny you mention the opera. I've actually taken great liberties with my colleague's libretto, specifically to make the long-form structure work "better" in my estimation. It's hard to tease apart what is a musical decision vs a dramatic one (I think they are very closely aligned, or should be). Luckily the colleague is a good friend and has given me full license. I've read about how certain opera composers beat up on their librettists (Puccini) or never felt a need to make any changes (Strauss, or famously, Gilbert & Sullivan, who wouldn't even meet until first rehearsals). It is a very different dynamic from scoring. At any rate, your piece is great. I look forward to the LSO broadcast. |
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Post by gx on Apr 15, 2019 18:00:46 GMT
John, you forgot to mention Bernstein and Sondheim - on WSS . Sondheim…"Most of the lyrics were sort of ... they were very self-conscious," he said. "Bernstein wanted the songs to be ... heavy, what he called 'poetic,' and my idea of poetry and his idea of poetry are polar opposites. I don't mean that they are terrible, I just mean they're so self-conscious." Peyser's bio of Bernstein goes into hilarious detail of the work in the making.. The yelling back and forth down the hall.. from separate rooms Mike, "Didn't he have an amanuensis latterly? I'm sure I once read of another composer who had syphilis too but can't remember who, any ideas?" He did.. Eric Fenby was dictated to by Delius ( a somewhat interesting book to read, by Fenby, . "Delius, as I knew him").. Well Schumann did go crazy, and folks think syphilis … Schubert, too… |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 16, 2019 14:03:13 GMT
Eric Fenby was dictated to by Delius ...... Then I also have an amanuensis...she's in the garden at present...  EDIT..that came out completely wrong. I meant that I must be an amanuensis...duuurrr. |
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Post by driscollmusick on Apr 17, 2019 16:08:00 GMT
Another thought, since no one's mentioned it: this piece is a bit like the Enigma Variations, if Elgar's friends were all animals...  |
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Post by gx on Apr 18, 2019 16:19:41 GMT
Mike, "Then I also have an amanuensis...she's in the garden at present... ;)EDIT..that came out completely wrong. I meant that I must be an amanuensis…duuurrr." no correction needed… I knew what you meant. I'm used to inverting. as I have 'the one who leads' just out of ear-shot presently.. |
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Post by driscollmusick on Apr 19, 2019 2:57:26 GMT
I need an amanuensis for my garden. No plake either...
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Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 21, 2019 14:50:19 GMT
Another thought, since no one's mentioned it: this piece is a bit like the Enigma Variations, if Elgar's friends were all animals... Good one. I'm on the final few pages at last and will post the last mvt when done for the sake of completeness. I'll be creatively bereft for a few weeks as always after finishing a big piece, but already have some new musical plans. |
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Post by driscollmusick on Apr 21, 2019 18:08:36 GMT
Another thought, since no one's mentioned it: this piece is a bit like the Enigma Variations, if Elgar's friends were all animals... Good one. I'm on the final few pages at last and will post the last mvt when done for the sake of completeness. I'll be creatively bereft for a few weeks as always after finishing a big piece, but already have some new musical plans. Sorry for the cheek. Sounds like it might be time to help in the garden? |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 21, 2019 19:21:15 GMT
Good one. I'm on the final few pages at last and will post the last mvt when done for the sake of completeness. I'll be creatively bereft for a few weeks as always after finishing a big piece, but already have some new musical plans. Sorry for the cheek. Sounds like it might be time to help in the garden? You're not wrong there John. Amanuensis duties for me, the garden is the wife's manuscript and I am the holder of the spade....bugger |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 22, 2019 14:14:38 GMT
Mike try this. Create a practice score that is the first 3 or 4 pages of your real score. Copy the cello part to the clipboard( or whatever mac calls it), or copy and paste to a different blank score. On your three or four page practice score, delete the cello part, altogether. Add a cello staff back into the practice score. Copy and paste the cello part (you copied earlier)into the new cello staff. If that works on the practice score, well, you know what you have to do. Would have been easier to fix early on. I've never run into your particular problem, but I do know that odd things get corrupted on a staff and, strangely enough, the above tactic works. Remember, copy and paste sometimes doesn't copy all markings, so you'll have to double check. That's why I suggest a practice score to see what happens. Although if you muck up the OE score, make sure you don't save it. Short of that, you should be able to rename all 96 pages. I managed to sort it thanks Bob, without any headaches. I reset the spacing of the instrument names in the document set-up page...simple in the end. |
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EDIT..that came out completely wrong. I meant that I must be an amanuensis...duuurrr.
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