|
Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 4, 2019 13:58:29 GMT
Gents...check your in box.
I've threatened this, so here it is. It's a big ask guys as it is 32mins long so far but I would deeply appreciate it if you can find some time to give me your thoughts on this. Conveniently, it is in 9 movements so you can take it in piecemeal if needed. Here's a breakdown..
2nd mv - starts at 2'30 on P10 of the score 3rd- 3'.3"8 p16 4th - 9'0" p33 5th - 13'18" p45 6th -16'47" p58 7th - 19'54" p62 8th - 25'22" p78 finale (unfinished) 28'26" p81.
The work is conceptually a story without words or plot and is for the listener's imagination. I imagined vague balletic scenes but there's no need for the listener to. Score is unfinished so there will be things missing in places, even so, with such a big score, if you see anything from a dodgy bit of scoring to simple omissions let me know. It's Peter and the Wolf for grown-ups...... It goes without saying that all comments good or ill are welcome so use this thread for replies.
|
|
|
Post by Tim Marko on Apr 4, 2019 20:06:37 GMT
WOW!!!
This is quite the endeavor ( endevour for you guys across the pond!). Just listened thru following the score. I'll definitely listen again in more detail.
The string writing is wonderful. The strings at rehearsal 3, wow. I also liked the combination of harp w/ vla an vc to open mvmnt VI. Is the A Fl. needed?
I'm not sure what I think of the divisi string part in the score. I had a bit of problem following myself, but perhaps just not studied enough to be comfortable with it. Your Cello abbreviation didn't follow on to the second page. Only other thing that struck me was at the end of Mvmt IV, you have the bowing marked with successive down bows.?.?
I'll dig deeper when I have more time.
Looking forward to the rest of it. I think I even heard a V-I cadence in there!
Very enjoyable, Mike!
|
|
|
Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 5, 2019 8:48:20 GMT
WOW!!! This is quite the endeavor ( endevour for you guys across the pond!). Just listened thru following the score. I'll definitely listen again in more detail. The string writing is wonderful. The strings at rehearsal 3, wow. I also liked the combination of harp w/ vla an vc to open mvmnt VI. Is the A Fl. needed? I'm not sure what I think of the divisi string part in the score. I had a bit of problem following myself, but perhaps just not studied enough to be comfortable with it. Your Cello abbreviation didn't follow on to the second page. Only other thing that struck me was at the end of Mvmt IV, you have the bowing marked with successive down bows.?.? I'll dig deeper when I have more time. Looking forward to the rest of it. I think I even heard a V-I cadence in there! Very enjoyable, Mike! Tim, thanks so much for taking the time and thanks for the nice compliments. Re the alto fl, the scoring will work without it, but it does add something to the timbre I feel. It could realistically come up another 2dB in the mix to make its presence felt a bit more. The divisi is easy enough to follow once you get used to it and I find it better than putting double slashes on an empty divisi stave to denote that they play tutti/unison. To avoid any confusion I deemed it necessary to explain the layout in the conductor's notes. Re the bowing at the end of IV, the midi doesn't play the gesture of the line properly and is on my revision list to sort out. The bowing best reflects the gesture if you imagine the g sharps shortened along with a slowing down in tempo. There are other ways to bow this, but this way feels musically appropriate to me and the last note is bowed down to facilitate a smooth and long diminuendo. If nothing else, the effect of the marked bowing will be apparent and that is all one needs to do to get the right interpretation across to the conductor and players. Yes, that damned VC instrument name, I have tried everything to correct it, to no avail. If I don't shorten the name and use the full name for every page, it's ok. Perhaps Bob P will come up with a solution. Thanks again Tim.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Apr 5, 2019 11:43:55 GMT
Given that I'm compelled to undercut moments of gravity - crikey bollocks! I listened to I. last night and thought no, do it properly. I listened through in one sitting just now with some drone videos of UK and Scottish countryside in the background - not always appropriate but more for mood. I didn't attempt to follow the score yet, just absorb it. It goes without saying that the variance of texture and instrumental colours is masterful and I'll have to study and loot more than a few moments. Musically I at the very least appreciated the first three movements (I'll have to re-listen as I know there were plenty of passages I loved, and very possibly my listening muscles weren't warmed up - remember even a Williams score doesn't go in on the first try for me) but from IV it was wonderful and I was suddenly listening as a person rather than a persnickety composer. It wasn't long through IV I thought "Ok, this is going to be my favourite" and then I thought the same again and again in the subsequent movements. The hits kept coming The string and woodwind writing are standouts, especially in the slower movements. But the brass, though I suppose it has a more supporting role, is also perfectly used - the ending of VII is just one of many examples. I'm playing back bits now and it really is pick-your-own-superlative levels of quality. Threads of Horner, Newman (the good ones, not Randy) and Williams here and there but very much your own voice. I happened to listen to some Vaughan Williams earlier too, and you don't come out badly from the comparison. VI particularly/unsurprisingly is worthy of the style he made his own. At times - really just some of the slower lyrical moments - the spiciness of your dissonance wasn't to my taste, but it's a personal thing, and conversely I'm sure you'd prefer my writing to be more adventurous in that regard. I certainly wouldn't suggest changing it as it's the spice of controlled intent and language, rather than "let's just jam the notes together to make it sound contemporary". In the more dramatic and "action" moments, such dissonance was a boon, and of course samples aren't always kind to dissonance. A live performance would sweep most of those nitpicks - apparently I wasn't entirely unpersnickety! - away. I'm assuming this is a personal piece informed by your surroundings, but for all I know you don't have cats or horses. How long have you been working on it? I'm feeling guilty for having written nothing since last November.
|
|
|
Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 6, 2019 11:00:23 GMT
Given that I'm compelled to undercut moments of gravity - crikey bollocks! I listened to I. last night and thought no, do it properly. I listened through in one sitting just now with some drone videos of UK and Scottish countryside in the background - not always appropriate but more for mood. I didn't attempt to follow the score yet, just absorb it. It goes without saying that the variance of texture and instrumental colours is masterful and I'll have to study and loot more than a few moments. Musically I at the very least appreciated the first three movements (I'll have to re-listen as I know there were plenty of passages I loved, and very possibly my listening muscles weren't warmed up - remember even a Williams score doesn't go in on the first try for me) but from IV it was wonderful and I was suddenly listening as a person rather than a persnickety composer. It wasn't long through IV I thought "Ok, this is going to be my favourite" and then I thought the same again and again in the subsequent movements. The hits kept coming The string and woodwind writing are standouts, especially in the slower movements. But the brass, though I suppose it has a more supporting role, is also perfectly used - the ending of VII is just one of many examples. I'm playing back bits now and it really is pick-your-own-superlative levels of quality. Threads of Horner, Newman (the good ones, not Randy) and Williams here and there but very much your own voice. I happened to listen to some Vaughan Williams earlier too, and you don't come out badly from the comparison. VI particularly/unsurprisingly is worthy of the style he made his own. At times - really just some of the slower lyrical moments - the spiciness of your dissonance wasn't to my taste, but it's a personal thing, and conversely I'm sure you'd prefer my writing to be more adventurous in that regard. I certainly wouldn't suggest changing it as it's the spice of controlled intent and language, rather than "let's just jam the notes together to make it sound contemporary". In the more dramatic and "action" moments, such dissonance was a boon, and of course samples aren't always kind to dissonance. A live performance would sweep most of those nitpicks - apparently I wasn't entirely unpersnickety! - away. I'm assuming this is a personal piece informed by your surroundings, but for all I know you don't have cats or horses. How long have you been working on it? I'm feeling guilty for having written nothing since last November. Your way too kind Dave, but I'll certainly take it and I'm delighted it spoke to you. It's interesting how you discern influences from film composers, for me, I hear concert music composers' influences in there, people like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Stravinsky et al and some JW amongst others. What I did decide to do was make it appealing, hence my re-visiting tonality. I found it a pleasant change to the heavy duty stuff I've written latterly and might even soften my atonality/dissonance a little for the next piece. I can't help the dissonances though, they are just there and much needed for me. They sometimes come about via contrapuntal means and at other times are deliberate harmonic choices. Either way, I feel they help progress the emotional arcs and narratives of the lines. It's taken about 6 months to write and is actually finished but the last 3 mins needs scoring out as it only exists in a short score at present. All the animals are/where real. The cats where ours as where the horses (rescue ponies, both deceased now). The birds, ducks, pheasants, moorhens etc. hassle us everyday. The fox and the beaver use the same animal tracks and the squirrels jump up on window feeders everyday, totally ignoring us. Now get off your arse and write music.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Apr 6, 2019 17:36:08 GMT
Very much my pleasure. I did hesitate to mention the dissonance because it's almost irrelevant, knowing that it's a keystone of your writing and you would have good reason. It certainly deserves more listening to get my ears more matured - tbh I regret bringing it up now.
So I listened again to Pastoral Ode, the movement where I most noticed said dissonance. On a second turn, I'm more convinced it (b512-ish) stuck out to me for some other reason than the notes but it confirms that VI is probably my favourite movement, just beautiful. Is this where Tim's V-I cadence comes in, the Bm-F# transition? I'd have used that over and over and ruined the pacing. b518-527 is extraordinary, I'm mad jealous fam (as the young ones might say). As for stealing your technique, I notice the dovetailed violin divisi - I have a hangup about dividing strings still, based on information I read back in my formative year, so anything new there is great - which I assume spreads the chord wider and just makes for a more unique timbre. Especially interesting was your use of bass, or lack of, I saw when I looked at the score. I wouldn't have had the faith to do that, but it both works and makes the cadences even more hair-raising.
(This doesn't count as "dodgy scoring" but the timecode you gave us for Pastoral is too early, starting at the penultimate bar of Kizzy and Esther. Confused me until I checked the score, Pastoral starts 16:59.)
It sounds an idyllic setting, we've had a hedgehog and pheasants continually strut the garden - our own cat nearly braining herself on the window trying to get out and murder them - but lacking in fox and beaver.
Do you plan to have this recorded or performed, or are your "to fl." commands merely good form?
|
|
|
Post by Bob Porter on Apr 7, 2019 1:09:13 GMT
Mike, Very nice, of course. I can't follow the score because my monitor is way too small. But, no matter. I prefer to just listen, anyway. Seems to me that if I hear something I might not like, the score won't help me like it. Or help me like something better that I already like. I'm not anti-score. It's just that good music, like yours, is for listening to, not watching. I am curious about what, in your mind, ties all these vignettes together, musically.
On one hand I hear the influences of the composers you mention. But on the other, I am just slightly bothered by comparisons of that nature. Here you've done all this work and someone says "Hey that sounds sort of like So n so". I know it's supposed to be a compliment, but I suspect you did't mean it to sound like whoever "so n so" is. You meant it to sound like "Mike".
As to dissonance. I heard some but only because I was listening for it. Otherwise I might not have taken any particular note. It was appropriate, well done, and didn't distract in any way. I sometime feel that composers use it because they can, because they think they have to, or just to be different. Whether or not it's musical doesn't always seem to be a consideration. I posted a piece here that had a horn rip that ended a half step below the note one might expect. It was a climactic beat and I wanted some tension. What I got was some grief for it. To me it worked and I'm not interested in changing it.
Unless you prepared this score in Sibelius, I have no idea how to correct the instrument name on subsequent pages of a score. I know you can, because sometimes things go wonky(legitimate musical term, I looked it up). Although I don't have really colorful expressions like Dave does.
Anyway I don't really have much to say about this piece. But very nice, anyway.
|
|
|
Post by gx on Apr 7, 2019 20:23:20 GMT
Hey Mike.. So much music here.. It overwhelms.. I've listened twice w/o the scoreā¦ Put it on big speakers.. The sound is excellent! I hear so much in there reflecting the many sides of the neo classical..but also some French (Ravel, and a touch of Saint Saens' 'acquarium' ) seasoning, with a healthy dose of English countryside .. somewhat reminiscent of VW and Delius and Britten in places.. Where the xylophone punctuates intense string passages (as well as other places)- reminded me a little bit of Shostakovich.. and a little Jazz in there too.. The offsetting of full orchestra and ensemble episodes keeps the ear, right there. The orchestration is incredible! I could go on and on about other references, Including Stravinsky, and what others have mentioned. But this is all your own, and shows a complete mastering and understanding of these earlier seeds.. I was delighted with its playfulness and whimsy, its dreaminess, and seriousness. This is a great work, and deserves a seat at the table with all the composers I mentioned.. I will listen more, and with the score.. Thanks for posting, Mike. It really was inspiring, and has lifted my day!. Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 8, 2019 9:36:48 GMT
thanks guys for taking the time and commenting, it is really helpful and much appreciated. Dave, The divisi you mention is pretty standard. Interlocking the parts is also a standard way to do things for the strings. interlocking is a useful way of creating interest in the individual parts because often it will involve higher positions for each line and get them away from their stock in trade registers. one can also exploit timbre at this stage, by utilising higher string tone and sul techniques. In the example you refer to, the sound is quite homogenous and is a nice foil for the tune to play out against. If you look at the other sections, you will see interlocking everywhere and I'd say the technique is especially important in divergent timbres like the wind if some sort of unity in the sound is required. (btw the time stamp is correct as the crotales are like a clarion call to meditation). It's not likely it'll get a performance and so I'm expending a lot of effort on the mixing (nearly there), if anything sounds out of place, let me know - the better the mix, the more impact it'll have if Simon Rattle and the LSO have a listen. Yeah, the change of instruments directions are just good form and habit. Bob, Thanks for the compliments and for listening. Nothing actually ties the movements musically -although the last mvt when finished, brings all the themes back and puts them together in counterpoint - a bit like all the animals playing with each other. The opening theme is then reprised before a rollicking coda and finish - but there is an emotional flow to them being played together and as suggested in the score, there is an extra-musical narrative that runs throughout. They are called symphonic scenes because each movement develops its material with motivic variation. I am using Sibelius (v8) and have tried everything I can think of, including digging into the engraving rules. If I change to full name on every page, it's fine. Reverting back to short names after page 1 brings the problem back...any ideas? Greg, V grateful that you gave up some time, thank you. You've probably mentioned all the influences I recognised too, except Delius who is not in my top 10 to say the least...way too greasy for me! I always think about Ravel and Tchaikovsky's scoring and Britten's economy of means when scoring and often look to push beyond an obvious way to do things, but with this piece I decided to be more direct and obvious in the scoring and not complicate too much. Stravinsky and Shostakovich certainly loom large in places too, but hopefully all influences have been refracted through my musical prism. I'd say your adjectives are spot on and intention wise, that is what I tried to achieve when creating the overall journey....
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Apr 8, 2019 10:37:54 GMT
(btw the time stamp is correct as the crotales are like a clarion call to meditation) :/ Excuse me for a moment as I bury myself in a giant hole in the ground. I got nervous about trying woodwind interlocking and don't think I even considered it for strings, but next time for sure. I wrote a short piece to test out extended techniques across the sections but had to leave it on the day. Gutted, it would have been a riot of harmonic gliss and trills, ponti-tasto, harp thunder and dissonant flutter tongue. Well, I'd buy a ticket.
|
|
|
Post by driscollmusick on Apr 8, 2019 15:26:01 GMT
Mike, the piece is great. As always, the details are impeccable.
I'm going to throw in one more composer: Barber, specifically Knoxville, Summer of 1915. I take it that the inspiration is Holmside (homeside?) in its current state, but there is a certain generosity in your animal depictions that made me think of childhood--the way small moments seem more significant and mysterious. Like you said, though, this isn't a piece *for* children; it's more akin to how we adults remember it (or can feel it again if we allow ourselves).
My favorite movement is the fourth ("Twilight, Moonlight and Stars"). I consider it the real *heart* of the piece and was quite moved throughout (Rehearsal 19, in particular, is marvelous). If I have a constructive suggestion, it's that this movement occurs too early. I kept anticipating one of the later movements to plumb the same depths, but they never did. That's fine, of course, but it left me feeling less emotionally engaged in the large-form structure than I think I would have been otherwise. In contrast, the second-to-last movement ("The Plake") felt more like it was setting a scene, and therefore could have occurred much earlier. My first thought was to try switching these two movements? I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but at the very least, I would suggest playing around with the movement structure at the highest level.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Porter on Apr 9, 2019 1:45:24 GMT
Mike try this. Create a practice score that is the first 3 or 4 pages of your real score. Copy the cello part to the clipboard( or whatever mac calls it), or copy and paste to a different blank score. On your three or four page practice score, delete the cello part, altogether. Add a cello staff back into the practice score. Copy and paste the cello part (you copied earlier)into the new cello staff. If that works on the practice score, well, you know what you have to do. Would have been easier to fix early on. I've never run into your particular problem, but I do know that odd things get corrupted on a staff and, strangely enough, the above tactic works. Remember, copy and paste sometimes doesn't copy all markings, so you'll have to double check. That's why I suggest a practice score to see what happens. Although if you muck up the OE score, make sure you don't save it. Short of that, you should be able to rename all 96 pages.
|
|
|
Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 9, 2019 7:55:20 GMT
I got nervous about trying woodwind interlocking and don't think I even considered it for strings, but next time for sure. I wrote a short piece to test out extended techniques across the sections but had to leave it on the day. Gutted, it would have been a riot of harmonic gliss and trills, ponti-tasto, harp thunder and dissonant flutter tongue. That'll be really cool and instructive, I hope you get to do it, we'd all learn from that I'm sure. re interlocking, have you ever tried using your samples to practice and get a feel for it, especially for wind? You know this, but remember to factor in instruments registral characteristics, especially their strengths in differing dynamics as that plays a pivotal role when wanting to achieve an even sounding balance in the real world - one can lose that perspective with samples. Samples can give a good approximation of how chords in wide and tighter spacing can sound using interlocking, enclosure and juxtaposition....experiment with a simple chord (same for brass too). It's pretty good ear training in the absence of the real thing.
|
|
|
Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 9, 2019 8:13:14 GMT
Mike, the piece is great. As always, the details are impeccable. I'm going to throw in one more composer: Barber, specifically Knoxville, Summer of 1915. I take it that the inspiration is Holmside (homeside?) in its current state, but there is a certain generosity in your animal depictions that made me think of childhood--the way small moments seem more significant and mysterious. Like you said, though, this isn't a piece *for* children; it's more akin to how we adults remember it (or can feel it again if we allow ourselves). My favorite movement is the fourth ("Twilight, Moonlight and Stars"). I consider it the real *heart* of the piece and was quite moved throughout (Rehearsal 19, in particular, is marvelous). If I have a constructive suggestion, it's that this movement occurs too early. I kept anticipating one of the later movements to plumb the same depths, but they never did. That's fine, of course, but it left me feeling less emotionally engaged in the large-form structure than I think I would have been otherwise. In contrast, the second-to-last movement ("The Plake") felt more like it was setting a scene, and therefore could have occurred much earlier. My first thought was to try switching these two movements? I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but at the very least, I would suggest playing around with the movement structure at the highest level. Thank you John. Your description of the piece is so right, I'll use it for the CD liner when the LSO recording is released if that's ok (don't worry...not gonna happen..:-( The dramas and adventures of all the animals are writ large but I hope that the symphonic/developmental aspect will hold the less imaginative or too grown up also. I've been (and still am) pondering your very valid suggestion about placement of mvts. My problem is that m3 cadences nicely into m4 and it also has an emotional resonance because at home, we often watch the badger and the fox at twilight going about their business. Soon after, on a clear night we see the milky way, hence the order. Regardless of that, there is validity in your suggestion and I guess the obvious solution is to shunt both mvts deeper into the piece. I do feel as though the tempo pacing is good overall with fast and slows mingling quite well. Is it the 'Plake's' open ending that makes you feel the way you do about it, or is it the music itself? I don't know the Barber, but will listen later to it as I am a big fan of his, I have a lot of his music on Naxos releases. Thanks again John for your time, it is a big ask.
|
|
|
Post by Mike Hewer on Apr 9, 2019 8:17:06 GMT
Mike try this. Create a practice score that is the first 3 or 4 pages of your real score. Copy the cello part to the clipboard( or whatever mac calls it), or copy and paste to a different blank score. On your three or four page practice score, delete the cello part, altogether. Add a cello staff back into the practice score. Copy and paste the cello part (you copied earlier)into the new cello staff. If that works on the practice score, well, you know what you have to do. Would have been easier to fix early on. I've never run into your particular problem, but I do know that odd things get corrupted on a staff and, strangely enough, the above tactic works. Remember, copy and paste sometimes doesn't copy all markings, so you'll have to double check. That's why I suggest a practice score to see what happens. Although if you muck up the OE score, make sure you don't save it. Short of that, you should be able to rename all 96 pages. Thanks for that Bob, I'll give it a go later and let you know how it went. Oh crap, the thought of having to go through the part checking for articulations, bowing etc. makes me wonder if I shouldn't just have full names throughout. I must've caught the inst. name with my pen (I use a touch screen for Sib.) and not noticed until many, many clicks and swipes later. One thing is for sure, staring hard at it and swearing doesn't work.
|
|