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Post by Mike Hewer on Mar 8, 2019 13:30:15 GMT
Worth checking out if you haven't already. It has a good chapter on balance ratio, or how much weight is given to different musical elements, based on Korsakov's classification of balance between instruments, along with other interesting observations. It comes with audio and score examples too. theidiomaticorchestra.net
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Post by Dave Dexter on Mar 19, 2019 12:42:42 GMT
I remember this site - just before I joined Ning or knew anyone from there or here, I emailed them during the desperate panic of realising how much I didn't know. They kindly gave some feedback on my earliest score.
The balance ratio section is very useful, I'd not seen it approached in that manner before but it's a central problem when orchestrating and one which I've had to make on the fly decisions regarding during sessions - as perhaps you have, though you probably had a better grasp of things in yours.
For anyone interested, my recording experience is about in keeping with this excerpt (all forte):
"One group of strings (e.g. 1st violins) · 2
One woodwind instrument · 1
One horn (or a saxophone) · 2
One brass instrument · 4"
Horns: all points where I notated "up to four horns, tbd", I used four or wished I had afterwards. Horns stack like nothing else. Next time, I'm using six vs three trumpets. Trumpets: unstoppable in almost any context, even solo, so that checks out. Woodwinds: easily buried at forte, especially if I divide them for greater texture rather than having flutes, oboes etc a2 on their lines. But then the texture is often what you want. Trombones: surprisingly easy to cover when providing rhythmic support, which is how I tend to use them. Unison melodies, no problem. Strings: I could almost always do with more cello and bass.
I've had to cut piccolo parts when used as the top note of staccato wind patterns, interferes too much. Harp: must be a 0.5, the instrument that most routinely vanishes in my music. Percussion: assume it's always going to be too loud, with the exception of bells, crotales, probably marimba and vibraphone. Notate about two dynamic levels above everything else unless in very quiet moments.
Of course, recording with section mics or using them to create a live performance mix through a PA can change a lot of this, making the quietest instrument sit above a full forte tutti, but may as well get it sounding good acoustically first.
None of this is legally binding :/
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Post by fuguestate on Mar 21, 2019 21:15:09 GMT
That's the (in)famous Rimsky-Korsakov rule-of-thumb ratio of instrumental balance. It's not a bad rule to follow, as long as you don't take it too literally or stick to it too bookishly. Given my inexperience at orchestral writing, though, I'd try not to deviate too much from it in my own work. Piccolo does cut through the rest of the orchestra like a hot knife through cheese, esp. at the top of its range. What comes to mind immediately are those piercing piccolo notes in the storm movement of Beethoven's 6th, which pierce right through an orchestral tutti cresc., and Shostakovich's characteristic high-register trills in climactic passages, e.g., in his 8th symphony. Harps... I'm ashamed to confess that the only time I ever hear a harp part in a forte passage is when it plays an ff arpeggio. Percussion: never write a roll simultaneously in the bass drum and timpani parts, unless you're writing a piece about thunder and no other instruments are playing. Though a ppp roll on bass drum is a good way to make a scary passage even scarier. Trombones: I think it depends on range. Upper-range trombones, which is usually where you'd be writing melodic lines for them, can be rather weak, and require thin orchestration around them in order to not cover them up. Loud, buzzing notes at the bottom register, though, can be quite overpowering.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Mar 22, 2019 11:24:51 GMT
There is also the question of dynamics for balance. Marking background/accompaniment material down a level or two is common practice and very useful for a conductor when balancing. I'm not convinced that trombones are weaker in the upper registers Teoh. It all depends on context of course, but they can be mighty powerful, especially 3 of them in unison. I immediately think of the last page of Elgar's first symphony as an example of triads in the upper range....(it has the score - fast forward to the end) www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SX9m2V9mbMBTW if you don't know this work, I'd heartily recommend it. Elgar was a master orchestrator and the first Symphony is one of the great artistic achievements in English music.
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Post by Bob Porter on Mar 22, 2019 14:30:55 GMT
Having grown up playing a variety of styles in different kinds of groups, has taught me that out in the real world most bets are off. You guys writing professionally at least have an idea of what you are up against. You mostly know what instrumentation and style you will be working with. That's an over simplification, I know.
In the wild, as you know, substitutions are made, things are edited, parts left out, as well as transcriptions performed.
I also got to experience first had how different instruments sound together. And how widely those same combinations can vary from group to group.
Ideal proportions? Sure, you have to start somewhere.
I am reminded of how Mendelssohn worked sometimes. He would set under a tree and scribble stuff on a hand scribbled grand staff. Then hand it to an assistant to transcribe.
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