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Post by fuguestate on Jun 20, 2018 19:57:15 GMT
Mike Hewer asked that I post this WIP for comments, so if it makes your ears bleed, blame him.  This started out being Phrygian dominant (or some approximation thereof), but it isn't strictly following that definition. So please don't berate me for that, I am deliberately writing it with a weird scale in mind, even if said weird scale isn't really what people call Phrygian dominant. (And please don't berate me for choosing an obnoxious key signature only to promptly negate it with tons of accidentals... this piece is just all-round weird, and this is part of it.) The feedback I'm looking for is mainly, how to proceed after the first half of m.7. I'm relatively happy with how mm.1-6 turned out, but everything else after that lapses back into a poor man's imitation of traditional harmony, and I really wish to break free from that. There were a couple of good ideas that came after (which is why I'm posting everything here), but overall, I'm not satisfied with where it's going, and will probably end up rewriting everything from m.7 onwards. But right now I'm stuck as to how to proceed. Any tips, off-the-wall ideas, cries to bin it, etc., are appreciated. Score (PDF)Audio (mp3)
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Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 20, 2018 21:18:18 GMT
Well, you did say.
I've mentioned before that I have no authority in these matters, I'm not really a fugue guy. But I don't listen to it and think "this doesn't work". It all makes musical sense, so if you're after approval from someone who doesn't get the form and just listened, you have it.
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Post by BootHamilton on Jun 20, 2018 21:29:49 GMT
Of the wall #1: At m.7., I hear it wanting to move into Eb Aeolian.
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Post by fuguestate on Jun 20, 2018 22:20:43 GMT
Dave Dexter: thanks for your approval, but I wasn't really looking for approval. I was looking more for feedback on what I did wrong or could do better, and ideas of how to better continue after m.7.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 20, 2018 23:03:01 GMT
Well then, back to the stoning.
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Post by rayinstirling on Jun 21, 2018 13:49:37 GMT
Sorry, but I just don’t get anything from this. To me it’s the equivalent of alphabet spaghetti on a paper plate.
Please tell me where I’m going wrong? How do I find enlightenment?
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Post by fuguestate on Jun 21, 2018 15:02:11 GMT
rayinstirling: You're not going wrong anywhere. The failure is all mine... basically everything past m.7 is unsatisfactory and I need to rewrite it. Mike asked me to post it here for ideas on just how to go about this rewriting.
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Post by Bob Porter on Jun 24, 2018 15:15:29 GMT
"everything else after that lapses back into a poor man's imitation of traditional harmony,"
I agree. But what else can you do? I feel like this exorcise has been more of a frustration for for you than a rewarding experience. Sure, there is a challenge, and then there is...maybe not worth it. But don't listen to me. I write for the fun of it. I push myself. But in the end, for me, it's the music, not the process.
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Post by fuguestate on Jun 25, 2018 21:13:05 GMT
Bob Porter: fugue-writing, in general, is a frustrating experience.  But that doesn't negate the fact that when you do pull it off, it is extremely rewarding. I had a definite goal in mind when I started writing this piece, but perhaps it wasn't specific enough to guide me all the way through. I do feel that up to about m.7 or so, it is pretty much on-target as far as my initial conception of it goes. It's what comes after that doesn't live up to what I wanted it to be. Probably because past the exposition, the "free counterpoint" isn't sufficiently narrowed down, so it was somewhat inevitable for me to lapse back into whatever it is now. Anyway, I wasn't planning on posting this now precisely because of these issues, but Mike Hewer wanted me to because he thought I might get some good ideas on how to pull things back on track after m.7. I'm still waiting on that. (Though I understand he's busy for the time being, so I'll just have to be patient.)
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Post by Bob Porter on Jun 25, 2018 21:42:32 GMT
It seems to me that any fugue in any mode can have the problem you are experiencing. Just because you got through the exposition is no guarantee you'll make it to the end.
Perhaps you are relying too heavily on a Phrygian dominant formula and not enough on how Phrygian dominant actually functions. I have no idea what that would be, but I do know that each note of a scale tends to want to move in a certain direction based on several harmonic and rhythmic factors. I have to believe that you can't use the same rules that you would for good old Dorian (sigh).
On the other hand, what exactly do you think is wrong with what you have? Go back to measure 8. Why does it begin to fail?
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Post by gx on Jun 26, 2018 14:03:55 GMT
Hey HS… It appears your question is regarding its harmonic movement…You start off in the Bb phrg. dom. - then m3 -in the 3rd beat, you introduce fb - which sets up your modulation to Ab phrg. dom. in m4 - But That modulation happens in the Middle of your second thematic entrance.. (One wonders then about if the 'cell' movement - is determining the harmonic change …. and I wonder why the shift in the middle of the theme, which you didn't do in the first entrance..
The Ab phrg. dominant continues until the middle of m5 when you return to the Bb phrg. dom. - with the entrance of the bass - and recap of the of the opening 2 octs. lower.
This continues until the middle of m10.. where it (seems) moves to F phrg. dom, (and the theme returns after a couple of measures of free counterpoint).. which hits the ear as an F7 chord w a minor 9th..
(I think it is important to map out its general harmonic mov… )
So, I'd be mindful of how the translation of the theme relates to it's harmonic mov… in other words, perhaps the - slightly altering (when needed) of the literal transposition should conform to a Pre-set(!) notion of it's harmonic mov. instead of the other way around.. (I wonder if you get what I mean… difficult to explain online:)
I would look for - when modulating - which notes are in common with the new transposition of the scale..
Also, I would lay out all the harmonic possibilities of the scale before getting started.. The chords - Bb, Bminor (enharmonic), And B major!, d dim., D aug, Eb minor, Fdim, Gb aug., Ab dim, and by adding 7ths, etc, more complexity..
This is quite an array of possibilities - that could be explored much more.. (Much of the harmonic impression here is a dom. 7w minor 9th. So much color untapped)
Also, one could even modulate to another related scale… the double harmonic comes to mind as an easy connection to the Phrg. dom.
This is just off the top of my head, and probably barely scratching what is possible here..
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Post by Bob Porter on Jun 26, 2018 14:13:23 GMT
Well, I agreed to your idea that the piece lapsed into traditional harmony. But I think it started out that way, too. We can't help it. If you listen to a lot of fugues, you can't help but write that way. Have you listened to many Phrygian dominant fugues? I'm guessing there aren't many out there. How to you know you didn't nail it?
"past the exposition, the "free counterpoint" isn't sufficiently narrowed down" This seems like a contradiction in terms.
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Post by driscollmusick on Jun 26, 2018 14:32:53 GMT
Hey HS… It appears your question is regarding its harmonic movement…You start off in the Bb phrg. dom. - then m3 -in the 3rd beat, you introduce fb - which sets up your modulation to Ab phrg. dom. in m4 - But That modulation happens in the Middle of your second thematic entrance.. (One wonders then about if the 'cell' movement - is determining the harmonic change …. and I wonder why the shift in the middle of the theme, which you didn't do in the first entrance.. The Ab phrg. dominant continues until the middle of m5 when you return to the Bb phrg. dom. - with the entrance of the bass - and recap of the of the opening 2 octs. lower. This continues until the middle of m10.. where it (seems) moves to F phrg. dom, (and the theme returns after a couple of measures of free counterpoint).. which hits the ear as an F7 chord w a minor 9th.. (I think it is important to map out its general harmonic mov… ) So, I'd be mindful of how the translation of the theme relates to it's harmonic mov… in other words, perhaps the - slightly altering (when needed) of the literal transposition should conform to a Pre-set(!) notion of it's harmonic mov. instead of the other way around.. (I wonder if you get what I mean… difficult to explain online:) I would look for - when modulating - which notes are in common with the new transposition of the scale.. Also, I would lay out all the harmonic possibilities of the scale before getting started.. The chords - Bb, Bminor (enharmonic) ,d dim., D aug, Eb minor, Fdim, Gb aug., Ab dim, and by adding 7ths, etc, more complexity.. This is quite an array of possibilities - that could be explored much more.. Also, one could even modulate to another related scale… the double harmonic comes to mind as an easy connection to the Phrg. dom. This is just off the top of my head, and probably barely scratching what is possible here.. I had started to write something up, but then lost it. I think Gregorio is right here. There is a lack of harmonic motion in the theme (it basically outlines a diminished vii chord in Eb-minor--i.e., one harmony), so there is not anywhere to go with it (unless you have a series of unresolved dominants). This is especially the case because, as Greg notes, the 2nd entrance of the theme uses many of the same pitches as the first theme, but just a step away. It doesn't feel like you've moved into a new key with the entrance of the 2nd theme. This is a reason that fugues are generally not written at the 2nd. When you add that to the single harmony implied by the theme itself, this may be why you are feeling a little stuck about it all. |
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Post by gx on Jun 26, 2018 14:51:47 GMT
edit - added 2 chords - and tip o the hat to John -
Also, I would lay out all the harmonic possibilities of the scale before getting started.. The chords - Bb, Bminor (enharmonic), And B major!, d dim., D aug, Eb minor, Fdim, Gb aug., Ab dim, And Ab minor!, and by adding 7ths, etc, more complexity..
This is quite an array of possibilities - that could be explored much more.. (Much of the harmonic impression here is a dom. 7w minor 9th. as John mentions). So much color untapped.
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Post by fuguestate on Jun 26, 2018 16:46:15 GMT
gx & driscollmusick: Thanks so much!! This is exactly the kind of feedback I need to get this piece going again. You're right, the subject is too limited in harmonic possibilities to draw from, so after a few entries there isn't much juice left in it to squeeze out, so not much else to go on unless I introduce new material. Looks like it's time to go back to the drawing board to see about spicing up the subject a little more. Also, as gx said, I definitely need to explore the possibilities of the scale more before I set about writing stuff in it. I think you also mentioned some time ago about possible modulations by punning certain intervals across transpositions of the scale. I've been meaning to get around to that, but perhaps I should study the possibilities beforehand first. No lazy way out, I guess. 
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But that doesn't negate the fact that when you do pull it off, it is extremely rewarding.
