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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 23, 2017 11:32:31 GMT
Here's my problem - with certain instruments, I have to use multiple tracks to cover the different articulations of an instrument. Simple example: For score purposes, I'm trying to find out a way to have individual regions - or notes even - on the same track assigned to different instruments or channel strips. This would be hugely liberating and a big step forward in scoring directly from the playback. There's a few commands I've found that seem hopeful, but I can't make them work. Let's say I want the red notes as the default instrument but the yellow needs to switch to pizz or any other articulation. Without keyswitches, on the same track and in the same region - is there a solution? Beats hell out of me, but it always does.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 23, 2017 12:00:48 GMT
Dave an articulation script is what you need. The only downside is that these are for LPX...time to upgrade?
linklink
Failing that, I can't think of anything immediately, but will ruminate on it for you.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 23, 2017 12:32:37 GMT
I think I'm explaining myself poorly again! Or misunderstanding what you've linked. When mentioning articulations, it's not an articulation or keyswitch issue in the sense you mean - I have to use completely different instruments and tracks for those string articulations and ideally I'd use one track for multiple instruments, whether by region or note. It'd also allow me to combine multiple percussion instruments onto one track. Obviously I can do this for scoring by simply merging tracks, but then the playback is affected.
If there's a function like pack to folder which merges the notes onto one track whilst still running the multiple instruments and assignments elsewhere, that would do it.
Upgrading scares me, there's a chance my stability would be shot. Apple's various apps and OS versions often don't play nice together :/
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 24, 2017 10:33:52 GMT
I understand now.
I cannot think of a way to do that immediately as I have never had to but I do see your dilemna. I wonder if something could be set up in the environment pages, some sort of routing/transform procedure. I'm afraid that sort of in-depth is beyond my ken though. Might be worth scooting over to one of the Logic forums and posting there if you haven't already. Sorry I can't help...anybody else with solid midi esoterica in their brain? If you find a solution Dave, make sure you post it as I for one would be interested.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 24, 2017 15:29:36 GMT
Thanks for thinking about it - I couldn't find any solution myself. Perhaps in LPX, there was mention online of a few things but no description of exactly the problem I was trying to solve. I was wondering about midi aliases but they still only trigger whatever track they're on rather than remaining purely as a reference wherever they're placed. Of course, something might click if I describe the exact problem I'm trying to fix rather than how I think it's best solved. So in this instance, I have two tracks for 1st violins, detache and staccato: For some reason, when displayed as a part in score it comes up normally, one uninterrupted stave. But when viewed in the full score or in horizontal manuscript form: clearly logic splits it at the different midi regions and classes it as two instruments, because it is. If I could get it to show up in score as one stave from two instruments (or more), it'd be fried gold. Though finding KS string samples that don't require me to have 15-20 tracks for five instruments would also solve it. I've got some older ones that might fit the bill.
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Post by fuguestate on Oct 24, 2017 18:08:30 GMT
Issues like this continue to convince me that the ideal setup (given the current state of software) is to work with two different scores (or files / projects / whatever you call it). One dedicated for notation, where you do whatever it takes to get the best notation, and one dedicated for audio, where you do whatever it takes to get the best output.
But I understand that this represents an immense amount of repeated work, so understandably people wouldn't want to do things this way. If only there were a time shop where I can purchase more free time, then I'd write my own software, a better kind of software, where you can have both in a single file.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 24, 2017 18:14:19 GMT
perhaps not ideal, but what about copying the detache region into the first track whilst keeping the original untouched, join the regions in the first track and then mute the notes in the score page for playback purposes and unmute for printing! Does that work? Go Teoh... get on with it . I'd buy.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 24, 2017 19:26:28 GMT
FS - that's exactly what I do, but I don't like having to do it. My notation workflow requires that I'm not listening to midi playback but a synced export from the project file, so I can't make changes on the fly in the score. Working from live midi means more flexibility. Mike - that'd work and it's similar to what I've had to do in the past. But a solution occurred you'll probably have an answer to! Exciting eh? I'm convinced the reason this isn't working is me doing it wrong: in East West's Play instrument you can load multiple instruments like so, which are then played concurrently. You can assign them each to different midi channels and outputs. And in the track, you have control over all the many automations in multiple channels simoultaneously. It seems to me that surely there's some combination of the above that would allow me to combine two or more instruments into one track, split them by midi channel, and then use automation to duck the volume on the different channels correspondingly to bring them in and out of the mix. Like a clumsier KS. Buggered if I can do it, though. I've tried assigning stac strings to midi 2 and changing automation in that channel but it makes no difference.
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Post by Tim Marko on Oct 24, 2017 22:10:04 GMT
HS, that's my current workflow. I write and render in Notion and create the final score in Finale.
Mike, to answer a question you had in another thread, Notion is capable of KS as well as most other parameters available in a DAW. That being said, it's a fairly tedious process to program them all in which is why I've started learning to use a DAW.
Dave, I've not a lot of experience with DAWs yet and certainly not logic, but it would seem to me there would be some way to change the midi output during the track similar to a KS to access channel 2 in PLAY. I'm asking as much as suggesting hoping to gain an insight.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 25, 2017 1:55:10 GMT
Dave, I've not a lot of experience with DAWs yet and certainly not logic, but it would seem to me there would be some way to change the midi output during the track similar to a KS to access channel 2 in PLAY. I'm asking as much as suggesting hoping to gain an insight. Everything I see suggests this but I'm missing something somewhere. Hard to phrase the question specifically enough to find input online, as well. Watch this space!
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 25, 2017 2:11:22 GMT
Ok, I've got it. 3am so I'll elaborate in a bit.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 25, 2017 11:42:52 GMT
Ok - this isn't precisely the solution I was originally looking for, but it functions in exactly the same way with the sample libraries I use and allows multiple different instruments to be played in a single track in Logic. *This is assuming you can't achieve the same effect with keyswitching, which I cannot.*For this example I'm using Logic Pro 9 and East West's "Play" libraries. First, you need to add the extra instrument to the main one you're using. Play's interface has an "add" feature that, as you'd guess, adds new instruments to create a bank rather than replacing the one you have. In this instance, the main violin part is using a suspended bowing patch. I added the staccato to end up with this: You can see in the bottom left the "midi" button. That allows you to assign different midi channels to each instrument. The sus violins I make 1, the staccato I make 2. The default is "omni", which means the instruments will play however you assign the midi elsewhere in Logic, so make sure NOT to use that. You are able to edit the parameters of the multiple loaded samples independently just as if they were in their own tracks. Next, you need to make sure that the track midi is set to "all". This means that both midi assignments from Play will come through. If you set it to 1, only the instrument you assigned as 1 will play. Setting it to "all" removes any filters and sets you up for the final stage. This is where I fell down. You assign the midi channels to notes individually, not to region or tracks. To do so, you select the notes you want assigned (the default is generally midi channel 1, so you only need to change one set of notes) and press "e". This brings up the events menu and your selected notes should be visible. Double-click in the "ch" bar and change any number to 2 - this will bulk-assign all selected notes to midi channel 2. You now have a single track that plays two different instruments (or more) which you can use either for faux-keyswitching between different articulations, complex layering, or simply saving space. If I've skipped over the steps or you're not familiar enough with Logic to know what I'm talking about, I'll elaborate.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 26, 2017 8:32:30 GMT
Well done Dave. I looked at channel switching in the event list, but I do not have samples that load in banks and so disregarded that as it did not work in my set-up. I should have realised your samples may operate differently, if I had, you could've got some sleep.... @tim, Thanks for that Tim. I have Notion on my iPad and although I like it it, I don't yet see Notion as a rival to Sibelius and probably because I have an iOS version, view it only as a sketching tool. I'd like to know now whether Sibelius actually can use keyswitching given that Notion can. My big love at the moment is Staffpad which I think is the best sketching software out there at present.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 26, 2017 12:28:03 GMT
It might seem I'm the kind of hard-bitten, driven composer that stays up to 3am struggling to conquer a problem. And sometimes that's true, but more often I'm watching Rick and Morty and desultorily trying two dozen different ways to google the same question.
As you said, it's not a catch-all solution as it depends on a specific library setup. I'd forgotten that Tim suggested exactly what I ended up doing, but it was finding out how it all worked that stumped me.
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