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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 9, 2017 12:17:22 GMT
Dave, I just noticed as I was doing the harp gliss in Sibelius that your spelling of the chord at b15 is problematical. The harp gliss at b16 goes from a c sharp to a top c natural and is not practical as tuned. The easy solution is to spell that chord at b15 either as g flat major or f sharp major. For the harp, the longer (i.e. flatter) the strings are, the more resonant and so I would advise you spell and tune the harp to g flat lydian. In other words like this...d flat, c natural, b flat / e flat, f natural, g flat, a flat. The same goes for all the orchestral parts too - that is all c sharps should be d flats and all f sharps should be g flats and so on - all notes spelt out like the harp pedals in other words. In the attachment, I've also included suggestions for stacc. bowing of the demisemiquavers which are at a speed good enough for spiccato bowing I feel. You do not have to put in the bow strokes as I have, they are just there so you can see how it'd be played with this bowing. There is also a suggestion for the legato with the clts. You may notice that a demisemiquaver is missing in the legato bowing but I was just making life easier for me...  . Of course, other bowings are available, but even if they change, these bowings are clear in musical intent and will save time. Attachments:dave.pdf (17.24 KB)
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 10, 2017 9:02:18 GMT
Thanks for this. My spelling is always problematical until I fix it! Does harp tuning tend to follow the current key (or vice versa) as I've noticed this in my other scores . . . that's obviously a very beginner question and should probably be obvious.
I'd gone for legato bowing on those passages with half the duration (so rebow every four notes) but your way's probably better, smoother and more matching the clarinets. When reaching the demisemihemidemisemisemiquaver I switch to staccato and then bowed for the last two - or three, can't recall now.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 10, 2017 9:09:00 GMT
Sorry Bob, didn't get to this until now. Thanks! It's in two keys really, and I've not yet precisely worked out which though I think Mike has - Gb lydian for the second part and presumably Eb lydian for the first. I won't be surprised if I'm wrong, it's generally the last thing I do, and why do I always end up in keys using a billion flats that musicians probably hate me for? Yes, harp gliss generally follows the key as it has to match the scale. The low trumpets are fine - it's very much a supporting part, not meant to be bright or intrusive at that point. I've got quite good at streamlining my midi for Logic's score but there's always something. Very nice, Dave. Thanks for sharing this and the abuse afterwards  As you know, most of the score problems come from trying to reconcile a daw file, and are to be expected. What key is this in? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that a harp gliss would be in the key of the piece. I suspect that the trumpet players would take a breath between m12 and m13. 2 octaves is a jump, but nothing they don't practice every day in warm-ups. My concern would be the low A,G and F# in the third part. Playable, to be sure, but maybe not the bright trumpet sound you want. |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 10, 2017 11:50:44 GMT
Dave,
I had a look at your harp part in detail as the tuning is important and is a little complicated. First off, scrap the gflat lydian tuning for the harp only at b16. All other instruments should be spelt in either f sharp or g flat lydian at that point, but NOT the harp - I'll explain why.
You have a g minor arpeggiated pattern in the bar before (b13) which is new. It is not a problem, but you need to know about enharmonic spelling to simplify pedal changes. I realise this is a weak spot at the moment for you, but basically every note can be spelt differently - to keep it simple, either sharp or flat. In order to make pedal changes simpler and less complicated, it is sometimes better to mis-spell a chord rather than ask for more pedal changes. (I'm sure I read once that harpists call these mis-spelt notes phonemes). Your music at b13 to b14 is a classic case and is why you can forget the g flat lydian tuning I mentioned at this point (but remember, only for the harp!!!!).
As luck would have it, Logic has spelt the notes fine here and so the c sharp is correct as is the f sharp along with the b flat. You would never spell an obvious major triad like this elsewhere of course.
So here is a map of pedal changes for your piece from the top...
B4....d,c,b/e,f sharp,g,a
B6...d sharp,c,b flat/ e, f sharp,g,a (more enharmonic spelling to avoid an impractical pedal change form the last e flat semiquaver to the e natural in b7, so the e flats are now d sharps)
B8...d natural,c,b natural,/e,f sharp,g,a
B12....d,c,b / e, f natural,g,a
B13...d,c,b flat/ e,f sharp,g,a
B15...d, c sharp, b flat/ e, f sharp,g,a
B16...Note you cannot have the gliss going to the top c natural here, choose a note nearby, Bflat one note below will be fine as it all happens so fast, there is no perceived clash.
B18....d,c natural b flat/ e flat, f natural, g,a
Having gone through the pedalling and providing you sort out the top note of the gliss in B16, all is playable.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 10, 2017 22:25:34 GMT
Precedent suggests it'd take me a good few hours to painstakingly work out even a short piece worth of harp pedalling, and here you've done it all. I'm still going to muscle through it myself and see what I come up with, but I have this to check against or fall back on.
I know the concept of enharmonic spelling, just obviously hazy on when and where and why. No cure for that but to actually learn theory, which is daunting. Thanks as ever for all this.
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Post by Bob Porter on Oct 11, 2017 0:08:48 GMT
Dave,
What I hear on soundcloud starts in E minor and ends in G minor. Pretty simple. Harmonic minor (raised 7th) will help explain some of the accidentals. Or not. As the composer, you get to decide what notes are in the piece. The problem comes when you have to provide players with music. Perhaps key should come a little earlier in the process. Though your ear will not let you stray far.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 11, 2017 0:32:10 GMT
If I hadn't done this before I'd certainly be more "what? huh?" about providing parts. I get there eventually (or less eventually with the kind of quality help on display here) but I don't have the intuitive grasp that allows me to sort it out quickly. Harp pedalling and key ends up being among the last thing to fix up - the accidentals don't change how I write at all so I just finish what's in my head and then set about tidying. Dave, What I hear on soundcloud starts in E minor and ends in G minor. Pretty simple. Harmonic minor (raised 7th) will help explain some of the accidentals. Or not. As the composer, you get to decide what notes are in the piece. The problem comes when you have to provide players with music. Perhaps key should come a little earlier in the process. Though your ear will not let you stray far. |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 11, 2017 6:37:28 GMT
No need to worry about key imo, just go with what feels good and right when composing as you are doing. The craft of notation can handle anything and is also there to provide clarity to the performer when music is correctly written.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 11, 2017 11:11:33 GMT
Nearly there now. I went through the harp changes last night - I deliberately hadn't tried to remember yours Mike, so I'm actually not sure if I ended up doing similar. Comparing my notes (I have to write everything out, I can't just look at it and know) I think I ended up close. A couple reasons for differences: I worked out the pedalling through the specific scales I'd written for the glissandi, which obviously are deleted in the score version save for top and bottom notes and you've not seen them. So where you (rightly) assumed the gliss in b4-5 would include a D# because the harmony briefly changes, I hadn't used it for such a quick moment. Even though the D# is now present after I added supporting bass notes. I feel ok about pedal changes themselves and the time I've given to prepare - repedalling on the note shouldn't cause problems, and as long as the pedals are on different sides they can change two at once while playing. The rest I sort of leak through the preceding passages when those notes aren't being used, as in the wide arpeggio pattern leading to the gliss b13-17. If writing for solo harp I'd probably approach it differently as you can hear the slight resonance through all strings when a pedal is changed (as in here) but good luck hearing that over the brass... I checked that very high C and I'm sure it's in range? unless it's an impractical squeeze. |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 11, 2017 12:57:21 GMT
Mr.D
Kudos for going through it yourself. The high C natural is in range, the problem is that in order to play it the harpist has to pedal it as the tunings need a c sharp prior to that moment. Once the harpist changes, your gliss down will contain c naturals, which you presumably do not want. It is not practical to change a pedal for a fleeting moment and I would suggest you gliss up to the bflat rather than c natural, it'll not be heard as such, I assure you.
BTW In your new score, the rests in b16 for the harp are missing. You definitely need to put them in for clarity. To be honest, that gliss top note should be simplified in my view to fall on the beat, not a semiquaver after it - it'd make life soo much more easy for the harpist with zero effect on the music. I do understand why it's written that way though and it wont be a problem.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 11, 2017 13:25:12 GMT
Got you - my scale/tuning for that b16 gliss is Db C Bb / Eb F Gb Ab though, so the pedals don't need to change again until b18 for the final gliss. If there's some reason that's poor form or wrong I'd love to know of course! Yup, rests/headless stems still to come for the harp. Since I write every note out first I end up with a pretty messy thing to convert into neat notation so having that top note off the beat - which I'd not noticed, definitely a fixer - is a common consequence. If I wasn't after making acceptable mockups then I could just write in the lines from scratch.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 11, 2017 13:34:54 GMT
ok..cool, you are sussing this well. B6 the e flats need to be d sharps because of the e natural on the first of b7 - no sense in making an awkward pedal change when you don't need to, use a phoneme. B7 has a pedal indication for b flat , yet the next gliss has b naturals! Apart from that, it looks good...nice one.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 11, 2017 14:09:46 GMT
Oh cocks. I got confused (it was 3am) and notated the change wrong in b7, should indeed be back to B nat. I'll change b6 - using the D# still means there's still only two pedal changes afterwards right, D#>D and Bb>B?
It's nice to have harp because getting the tuning right forces me to in some way understand what's happening overall in the piece. But it's still a right pain.
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Post by king2b on Oct 11, 2017 14:15:36 GMT
Just a thought, the choice of time signatures/note values. I can hear everything in double values e.g. semi quaver equals quaver etc. 6/8 in 3/4. It would aid conducting and the note reading would be a lot clearer. Then again, what do I know against you guys!
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 11, 2017 14:31:36 GMT
It took me a while to get the time sigs sorted out and I wasn't sure about them, but they seem to fit together and since no-one else brought them up I feel fairly confident. The 6/8 section was 3/4 originally I think, but it just looked messy, the phrases weren't neatly delineated and the thrust of the passage was lost. Pretty sure you'll know more about it than me though, do you mind breaking down what you mean for me? Just a thought, the choice of time signatures/note values. I can hear everything in double values e.g. semi quaver equals quaver etc. 6/8 in 3/4. It would aid conducting and the note reading would be a lot clearer. Then again, what do I know against you guys! |
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. Of course, other bowings are available, but even if they change, these bowings are clear in musical intent and will save time.
As you know, most of the score problems come from trying to reconcile a daw file, and are to be expected. What key is this in? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that a harp gliss would be in the key of the piece. 
