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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 6, 2017 14:20:22 GMT
soundcloud.com/davedextermusic/dark-times-dark-action-cue/s-CL5SaI'm starting to collate and write material for a big session next year and this is the first new one. It started as an attempt to deliberately ape some modern trends in action scoring with the relentless string ostinatos and blaring deep brass - the title "Dark Times" has a secret hidden meaning you can probably infer easily here - but I found it hard not to include woodwind swirls, heroic trumpets and a melodic theme, albeit short. Midi-wise I could do more, but aside from occasionally plastic woodwind it's personally good enough for current purposes. The score is obviously a bit messy and cramped as it's pre-condense, though most of the information is there. Probably need to re-group the strings and woodwinds on those repeating 3-note phrases as in b13, where Logic has grouped as 4s, and a few other similar issues. Afaic it's more or less finished, but then I always say that before a big round of edits - any critique always welcome!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 17:51:52 GMT
Dave, following the referencing of many cues of this genre, your missing link is that of deep percussion. The sort provided by among other developers Heavyocity. Yes, I know this turns such work into hybrid orchestration but.........just my tupence work.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 6, 2017 18:15:10 GMT
Thanks Ray. I know what you mean, but hybrid is a dirty word for me, perhaps it's simpler to say that this is in part an appropriation of modern scoring trends through the idiom of "classic" scores. Played live I think this would be pretty beefy . . . there's always bass drum though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 18:36:25 GMT
Yes.............
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Post by fuguestate on Oct 6, 2017 21:35:48 GMT
[...] Probably need to re-group the strings and woodwinds on those repeating 3-note phrases as in b13, where Logic has grouped as 4s, and a few other similar issues. IMO, I wouldn't regroup those notes in 3's, that might get mistaken for triplets instead. (That's a common shorthand for triplets, i.e., omit the 3's after the first 2 or so groups of triplets, and just use beamed groups of 3 to indicate them.) In m.18, I'm not 100% sure about the high D on trumpet 1; that's pretty darn high for a trumpet, and you'd want to check with your player to make sure he can pull it off. Especially since this is a score in C, meaning he has to play an E on a Bb instrument. Professional players are probably OK to play that note, but as Rodney once said, while he can play such high notes he wouldn't actually write them. OTOH, since this is just for a "riff" effect, perhaps it doesn't matter too much whether the player can actually hit the precise note, as long as he can produce a riff-like sound. And you probably already know this, but fast scales / runs like the winds in the 2nd half of m.8 can, and probably should, be notated with glissando notation, since they're not going to be played precisely. Might as well save the score space / improve readability. In m.18 the harp gliss probably should be notated with a wavy line(?). AIUI, a straight line is for a smooth glide (portamento-like), which is impossible on a harp. But I could be wrong, since the intent ought to be clear to a harpist. |
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 6, 2017 22:23:12 GMT
Thanks for the comments FS. That harp scale slipped the net, it should indeed be gliss lines! Cheers! Wavy is best but I don't have access to them, and straight lines worked fine in my last recordings - as you say, intent should be clear.
I check all my ranges against live playing rather than samples - the trumpeter won't thank me for it, but I think it's doable. And yes, since it's a blurry chromatic rundown it's not as critical as a precise held note. Worst comes to the worst on the day, I'll drop it an octave.
I didn't know WW runs can be notated with gliss - clearly that's preferable here. I've never seen it in scores, though (as opposed to many examples of notated runs, especially in this genre) and I wonder if because the mechanics are different it will work as well as I'd like? I'd rather use space than risk even a little ambiguity.
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Post by fuguestate on Oct 6, 2017 22:52:42 GMT
Well, at your given tempo no performer is going to articulate every single note precisely. All you're going to get is a slur of notes that may or may not include everything written, starting and ending approximately at the first and last notes. (Well, OK, the starting note is probably more likely to be exact, but after that, there's no guarantee.) So I wouldn't worry too much about precise notation here. I believe the convention is to write out the first, say, 3-4 notes and then omit the rest, with a cut-off beam and a wavy line to the last note. But I'll let Mike Hewer spell out the details for you, as I haven't actually used this notation myself so I'm not confident I have all the details right.  |
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Post by Tim Marko on Oct 6, 2017 22:55:48 GMT
Dave,
Are you planning to use the same caliber players as your previous sessions? If so, the D in the tpt part won't be a problem. As a trumpet player, I'd be more concerned about mms 12 -13. Almost a two octave drop with a dynamic change as well. That's quite a leap, even for an accomplished player, to pull off.
I look forward to hearing this when you get your session recorded.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 6, 2017 23:11:40 GMT
Tim - same caliber or probably better. Good spot b12-13 - there should be a gap between the last note of b12 and the mf rearticulation at b13, which is obvious in the mockup but perhaps the score is ambiguous? Remember I don't read so I have to sometimes take it on trust my DAW is processing midi events as I'd like! I'll mark it staccato so there's no chance of confusion. Presumably with a staccato articulation the pause is sufficient for good players?
FS - listening to the previous scores I think the overall effect is what you describe on the more elaborate WW runs, I just feel nervous about not notating - with notation they know exactly what the intent is and can then decide how best to achieve it. I've googled the issue and found no definite answer. Mike indeed might know!
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Post by Tim Marko on Oct 6, 2017 23:19:07 GMT
Dave,
Perhaps instead of a staccato mark, change the dotted quarter to an eighth note. It's still a big leap, but they will be able to read it easier and not miss the articulation.
I would go with notating the runs. As you've already found out, studio time is precious, and too expensive to leave anything to chance.
After rereading HS's original post, I think I agree with him. I would notate the first, highest and last note in rhythm and use the wavy gliss line. (I should read more carefully before putting my foot in!!!lol)
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 8, 2017 12:37:00 GMT
hi Dave, Marvel comics or DC take note. Some things (you'd be disappointed otherwise  ) in no particular order...... Check your picc. player has a B extension as you have written a c sharp at b16 which is a semitone below the standard range. Trpts at b8 and b16 last beats should be written as semiquaver triplets or 6 in the time of 4. I am not so sure about the C.Bsn on its lonesome with the opening rhythm in b8-10 and b13 cf. It might be an idea to give the syncopation more body with low brass the way you have it in b5+6 - just a thought. I noticed that you have slurred the clts in b5, b9+10 - it might be better to have them articulate the same as everybody else, unless there is a reason in your mind for that. At b13 make sure you stipulate either major or minor trills for the bsns. Whilst on the bsns, I couldn't help thinking that they'd be better served doubling the bass/vc line as the brass cover that area completely and do not need doubling in this way. You could overlap the bassons so that each gets a rest at some point if you decide to do that. Spelling dear boy...I get that we are going from e flat major to e minor, but can't help thinking that the low e flats early on should be d sharps. It is a tricky one though, clarity can be helped by using cautionary accidentals from b flat and e flat to their natural state across the barlines....no sense in inviting queries, even though we all know any accidental is cancelled in the next bar, if anything it'll just help the sight reading. Knowing you, this is going to be one of several pieces you will record. With that in mind, take note of the sizes of timp you are asking for here. You will need 5 timp - 2 of the largest and 3 made out of a combo of the next 2 smaller sizes as there is no time to tune between the 5 notes. Just something to be aware of when writing other pieces. BTW just noticed in b12 of the timp, the trill is marked with slashed stems AND a trill line - no need for both, settle on one way and stick to it. Get rid of the rests in the harp at b16 in particular and if you really need the top of the gliss syncopated like that, use headless stems to delineate the rhythm (I'll show you if you need me to). Bless you for giving the harpist some excitement at the end of b6, but is it going to be worth it? The upper string semis need dynamics at b5. Do you want the semis in the strings and wind to be full length or staccato. If shortened you should write the word stacc. into the score and parts so there is no misunderstanding. Oboes at b12 - their trills will be ineffective against the powerful trumpets. I would definitely give them a role in helping the rest of the wind - they can partially double the clts to much better effect. There are 2 notes on the first beat of b13 for the glock. This seems like an unnecessary complication for the player for no benefit - just having a line that doubles the violins is all that is needed. Likewise the final chord for the glock is not practical and the single low g is the only real option here. Memorable cue though. EDIT.... Sorry, just read the correspondence above. I would not recommend using a gliss line of any sort for the wind runs, the way they are written is precisely what they need. Sure, in light music it is understood and will be understood by most orchestral players too but the way it is in your score Dave is correct. As to the harp, always use a straight line for gliss, not wavy. I think Tim is spot on about the trumpet line too. |
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 8, 2017 19:49:01 GMT
Oh please, at least the list gets a little shorter and less serious each time! Some of this is stuff not mentioned but on the mental list, as the score lacks the final 5% that makes it shiny, but I'll go through those and the things that had really slipped my gaze for anyone else interested. Piccolo: oh WHAT I checked so thoroughly . . . well, makes sense the one I missed would be the one you spot. As the start of a fast scale I might get away with C# just to indicate "start as low as you can" but no idea how that got in there, I had to fudge the WW to get everything in range and did a lot of testing. Boo. Trumpet notation b6 and 18: I'll set about fixing this, not sure why it hasn't automatically. Lonely c.bsn: it made sense at the time but now I question it, probably I got caught between two approaches and the c.bsn is the remnant. I wanted that deep brass swell but I could sacrifice tuba perhaps, surely 2 ten and 1 bass bone are going to be pretty sonorous. Clarinet slurs: deliberate choice, they're following first violins in the more flowing countermelody and I wanted them to be differentiated from the more punctuated higher woodwinds. Of course I should maybe slur Vn1 as well, but I'm not feeling it... Trills: since been fixed to the same manner as my last performed scores (I think you suggested it last time as well) but while it's a faff, I'm glad I do it now for clarity. The bassoon trills are more for the unsettling texture than harmonic reinforcement. Would they be unheard? Uncertain! Accidentals and key: ohhh, this will be a fun one but I just haven't done it yet. Accidentals are the defaults rather than any choice on my part. Timpani: another one I saved to sort out later and in fact forgot to ask about. I'd been told that the timps are tuned and left until rests, barring gliss effects, but I've seen players retune and then return to tuning, one note to the next, during a passage on the same drum. If I was confident a player could drop a semitone mid-passage (it's the E/Eb that forces me into five timps really) I'd write for that. I used common chord harmonies at least once to trim the fat, might be some more room there. Or I could use a bass drum to cover for retuning time. But I never want to go beyond four timps ideally. The gliss/trill inconsistencies have since been sorted btw, I checked how I did it in the previous scores and stuck to it. b6 harp: It stays  could reinforce with glock though. Tidying rests, beaming, voice assignments and ofc pedalling is on the cards. Would I need to indicate rhythm on the harp gliss? I mean, in all cases it's following the same scale and there's not much room for deviation. b5 string dynamics: arse. Nice spot. I'm always undecided on staccato markings as default articulation will mostly give the separation I want, especially with this reasonably fast rhythm where they'll be compelled to pretty much play staccato by default . . . but then I've used staccato for particularly crisp ww passages in brandenburg recordings and it worked great. Honestly unsure right now! Oboe trills: I agree in retrospect, not a strong texture. I'd like that effect, though, and don't want to sacrifice the high ww. Vn and vla - perhaps it's time to finally write a string trill, no danger of that getting drowned. Glock: I had a few more random double stops and I got rid of them before thinking "they've got two sticks!" You're right though, it doesn't add much of anything, think I was being lazy. Memorable: you're very kind! Thanks as ever for the time. hi Dave, Marvel comics or DC take note. Some things (you'd be disappointed otherwise ) in no particular order...... |
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Post by Bob Porter on Oct 8, 2017 22:05:32 GMT
Very nice, Dave. Thanks for sharing this and the abuse afterwards As you know, most of the score problems come from trying to reconcile a daw file, and are to be expected. What key is this in? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that a harp gliss would be in the key of the piece. I suspect that the trumpet players would take a breath between m12 and m13. 2 octaves is a jump, but nothing they don't practice every day in warm-ups. My concern would be the low A,G and F# in the third part. Playable, to be sure, but maybe not the bright trumpet sound you want. |
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 9, 2017 8:05:22 GMT
Hi Dave,
Definitely a good idea to help the cbsn with the tuba. The 3 bones will be fine. As the clt slurs are deliberate and you want the vlns to match, you should make sure they know otherwise they will probably match the articulation of the other strings - much better than trying to explain on the day. One complication might be the demi-semiquavers at the last beats of b5+6, these will have to be bowed carefully and there will be different ways of doing it, one of which might be preferred on the day.
You know, the bsn trills might well be heard just - if they are important to you, you could always mark them up a dynamic or balance the brass down a bit on the day if they are not clear or felt enough.
Regarding the low timp eflat, if it was me and I only wanted 4 timp, I would probably just let the timp play an e natural over the e flat. Radical I know, it's all down to how you like your harmony. For me strong edgy spice works well. Alternatively, try the c or g over the eflat for a more consonant approach, seeing that you already have them tuned up. Just a thought, sometimes the drive for correctness can miss other opportunities to pep things up a bit. As it stands, it is not practical for a player to tune on the hoof in this case.
The harpist would easily work out the rhythm of the gliss in b16, but clarity is the game in town and anything you can do to make it clear should be the aim. I will punch it into Sibelius later so you can see the sort of thing I mean. If it's a problem for logics notation software, then keep it as it is (with rests) and the harpist will get it.
For the string articulations, the tempo is not fast enough to ensure stacc, or rather spicc. as it could be bowed more legato (longer bows) so it'd be best to let them know how short or long you want it. From the midi rendition I would recommend a stacc. marking for clarity and excitement. The vc and basses especially would be more clear and precise in stacc.
The wind parts are full on with hardly no rests and a big leap at the end of a run down in b8 through 9 in the flts and clts. That leap is ok, but feels a little awkward. The clts could possibly stay as they are, but why not take the opportunity to give the flts a breather there and let them finish on the low e on the first beat of b9 and take a rest for one or 2 bars. This will not harm the balance in any way. It might be worth thinking about giving other players one or two rests too. As a suggestion for example, you could end the wind parts on the first semi of b8 and rest them for a beat and a bit before the flourish in that bar. Aurally attention might be drawn to the fp in the brass and the impetus of the trumpets and so the wind drop out will not be missed I feel and it will give the players a little mental time to prepare for the execution of said flourish. If you need something to replace the wind, what about the xylo perhaps.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 9, 2017 11:39:11 GMT
Already added the tba - might also add some low staccato harp as db is spoken for. Good call.
Timps - I was absolute sure I'd assigned some d# roots to be g, just as you suggested. Apparently not. (I considered playing E over D# and it'd probably be fine, but I'm only adventurously dissonant in very sedate ways). Now I've done that, I can get away with 4 timps tuned C, G, F# and E. Or go further and have only G playing under the D#, Gm and C chords. Not much purpose to it thought.
I have an idea what you mean with harp especially as a similar thing came up with fuguestate's string gliss question - I feel I've seen those headless stems in scores before and never questioned it. Interested to see your usage.
Good to know re strings, I'll mark stacc. It's definitely meant to be a chunky low riff.
I was less babying with wind parts this time after realising how much more resilient to longer passages good WW'ers are, but the big jumps were bothering me so I'll add some gaps. I'm still bad at cutting instruments out for short spaces, even when you'd barely or never notice.
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) in no particular order......
could reinforce with glock though. Tidying rests, beaming, voice assignments and ofc pedalling is on the cards. Would I need to indicate rhythm on the harp gliss? I mean, in all cases it's following the same scale and there's not much room for deviation.
