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Post by driscollmusick on Feb 10, 2019 14:51:59 GMT
Anyone heard of him? Ran across this piece "Come In!" on a Gidon Kremer album and was unexpectedly moved. Unabashedly tonal music written in the 1980s, so not surprising to read that he is quite divisive. Apparently he is considered in the minimalist school, but I would not categorize this piece that way. I consider myself fairly immunized to such overtly tonal modern stuff, so I was surprised by my own strong reaction to it.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Feb 10, 2019 22:26:05 GMT
Personally I find it strange you would hear a piece of tonal music and preface it mentally with "overtly" and "unabashedly"! - I mean there's nothing wrong with being tonal, is there? The movement and motifs established in the first two minutes were moving to me as well. I wasn't sticking around for the full 26.
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Post by gx on Feb 11, 2019 6:02:04 GMT
Tonal or not, I just have to believe it…. I listen for 3 + minutes.. I thought it was well put together, though it is quite familiar ground.. just didn't get the wooden blocks bit at 1:13. (Maybe That was the minimalist part:).. The first bit of the theme reminded me of Tschykowsky's serenade for strings..also, it reminded me of the Late B. Qts. (the A minor qtt., when it goes into a f major). Perhaps i need to listen longer to let the mood linger longer.. I didn't notice much if any wink or tweak to modernism..Back in the 80's i think many were saying that 'melody', is making a strong return. Perhaps his voice is a reflection of that.. (I fail to see the minimalist framing). I say this, unabashedly.
John, speaking of minimalist, have you heard Shaker loops - J Adams - the string qtt. version?
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Post by Tim Marko on Feb 11, 2019 12:31:42 GMT
I was curious, so I looked up another work by him. Still very tonal, but I can see the minimalism here with the constant repeating melody. I found both pieces enjoyable. The wood block could have been "knocking on the door? "
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Post by driscollmusick on Feb 11, 2019 15:46:54 GMT
Dave Dexter. I just meant that there weren't even any crunchy bits. Obviously I myself write what is basically tonal music, so it's not meant as a slam. But writing concert music like this is in the 1980s took some guts (less so now) gx. So reading up a bit more on him, the "familiar ground" seems quite intentional as he's got some interesting ideas on the state of composition: Tim Marko Yes, I think the blocks are supposed to be the knocking on heaven's door. At first I thought the recording had them out of a balance, but then I heard another recording where they are equally loud and out of place, so it seems quite intentional. All, I would encourage listening to more than a few minutes as I do think it's the structure that makes the piece (for me, at least). It's this recurring stepwise ascending theme element that reads to me like a prayer (or deep wish) to transcend, a yearning to achieve resoution. The title references asking to be admitted into heaven, but I think it's possible to find an equally non-religious framework for the sentiment. Puts me in mind of the chorale-like cyclical structures of Beethoven's Heiliger Dankegesang string quartet movement or even the last movement of Mahler 9 (though much less anguished)--probably intentional!
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Post by Dave Dexter on Feb 11, 2019 16:25:44 GMT
Dave Dexter. I just meant that there weren't even any crunchy bits. Obviously I myself write what is basically tonal music, so it's not meant as a slam. But writing concert music like this is in the 1980s took some guts (less so now) He basically believes in the end of European culture: a process he thinks started in the 20th century, and was completed by the development of postwar modernist music. The roots of this demise were planted centuries ago, in the middle ages in Europe, when European art broke away from the church and from the idea of ritual, when it became completely free and independent. Through that independence, art and music lost their raison d'être. That means that today it's not possible to write original music. According to Martynov, the principle of invention in European music has exhausted itself, and the only music that is possible in our time is non-inventive. Fair enough, I thought 0.28 was a bit crunchy but obviously it's "nice" music. Depending on perspective, it could be beautiful and soaring; or staid and unsurprising. It's interesting he considers himself a "tinkerer" but it sounds like he has very specific and boringly elitist views on music that I disagree with as loudly as possible, as I imagine most of us do to some extent. If he's saying music lost its true purpose when removed from religious purposes? That's anathema to every reason I have for being a composer and thinking music is important for its own sake. Hell, Tallis (quiet in the back, you know I love Tallis) by all accounts was able to flit between religious camps and compose accordingly dictated by the needs of the time - a true pragmatist who, though probably believing in god, composed as a job. Like Bach's religious music. I suppose Martynov has the modern composer's romanticised notion of music that we've all discussed before, dismissing music-for-hire of the modern age like Williams but endorsing it from the old masters.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Feb 12, 2019 7:25:31 GMT
Stravinsky was obsessed with ritual and it reflected in his music (Le Sacre, Les Noces, the later religious works etc.) - he was Russian Orthodox. He typically described himself as an inventor of music on his passport rather than a composer and yet Stravinsky was completely and utterly original. Still it is true that the concept of ritual guided Stravinsky but Martynov, at face value, doesn't seem to factor in personality and the human drive to develop, explore and overcome. These natural instincts are fundamental contributors to the development of music and art and as such, music is a profound reflection of what we are. On this basis I don't believe we had any choice other than to emancipate music from the requirements of the church.
Postwar modernism I'd argue has opened the doors of acceptance so wide that originality is actually easier to achieve - the results are palatable or not however and in some cases, deeply suspect....like inappropriate wood blocks.
Re the actual music I agree with everyone here and certainly do not need a religious frame of reference to be moved by the music. The clicktrack/block is like a terribly misjudged joke and I certainly wouldn't let him into Heaven with knocking like that....I mean surely the door to Heaven isn't made of plastic laminated balsa wood! The fact is all of us here can write music like that and although there is a nice sentiment in the strings, surely there is absolutely nothing in the music that places it beyond the ordinary by todays standards. I got to 20mins and then stopped listening. I agree with Dave here, it is absurd to suggest that music has deteriorated since emancipation from the church and its reason for being is a lot more than just a utility. I wonder how stale music would be today if it had not broken out into the secular world and away from a dictatorial paradigm all those centuries ago.
All hail the tritone.
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Post by driscollmusick on Feb 12, 2019 15:14:53 GMT
Stravinsky was obsessed with ritual and it reflected in his music (Le Sacre, Les Noces, the later religious works etc.) - he was Russian Orthodox. He typically described himself as an inventor of music on his passport rather than a composer and yet Stravinsky was completely and utterly original. Still it is true that the concept of ritual guided Stravinsky but Martynov, at face value, doesn't seem to factor in personality and the human drive to develop, explore and overcome. These natural instincts are fundamental contributors to the development of music and art and as such, music is a profound reflection of what we are. On this basis I don't believe we had any choice other than to emancipate music from the requirements of the church. Postwar modernism I'd argue has opened the doors of acceptance so wide that originality is actually easier to achieve - the results are palatable or not however and in some cases, deeply suspect....like inappropriate wood blocks. Re the actual music I agree with everyone here and certainly do not need a religious frame of reference to be moved by the music. The clicktrack/block is like a terribly misjudged joke and I certainly wouldn't let him into Heaven with knocking like that....I mean surely the door to Heaven isn't made of plastic laminated balsa wood! The fact is all of us here can write music like that and although there is a nice sentiment in the strings, surely there is absolutely nothing in the music that places it beyond the ordinary by todays standards. I got to 20mins and then stopped listening. I agree with Dave here, it is absurd to suggest that music has deteriorated since emancipation from the church and its reason for being is a lot more than just a utility. I wonder how stale music would be today if it had not broken out into the secular world and away from a dictatorial paradigm all those centuries ago. All hail the tritone. I am more forgiving of the wood block, maybe because I did something similar in my senior thesis composition and was also tut-tutted for it. It's a dramatic device more than a musical one, which makes sense to me in the ritual context. It's like when an actor breaks the fourth wall to draw attention to the artificiality of the work itself (Brecht-style or any number of modern movies). It's so obviously *wrong* and jarring that I think it's supposed to snap the listener out of any lull. But for the record, I don't agree with any of Martynov's philosophy either.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Feb 12, 2019 15:57:29 GMT
Yes it makes sense in a ritualistic sort of way, but to my ears it sounds ridiculous as a piece of music. If Tim is correct about the knocking on a door then it is absurdly comic and hopelessly naïve for my tastes. The juxtaposition actually denigrates the music imv. We can all do silly things like this but those who advocate and actually practice it make me wonder if its a stunt to grab some attention in the absence of anything with more substance. Has he written in other styles, rejected atonality, that sort of thing? Arvo Part turned his back on modernism didn't he, perhaps Martynov did too.
Talking of absurdities, I once did a track for strings accompanied by sampled baby noises.
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Post by driscollmusick on Feb 12, 2019 16:08:43 GMT
Yes, from the Guardian article...
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Post by gx on Feb 12, 2019 18:17:11 GMT
Interesting time line progression.. so he started off composing, 'avant garde' - so immediately rejecting tonality, but judging by his eventual return, I wonder if he prematurely cut it off (tonality) , and then, finally needed to proclaim the 'modernism' of wrapping oneself, Exclusively,in the security of the tonality blanket.. and 'born again'. That's my dimestore Sigmund talking…so to be taken w a grain (or pillar, if you prefer) of salt..
Sometimes 'ritual' reminds me of the scene from "Midnight Express'.. Perhaps this is the moment (metaphorically) when Martynov made his decision for the avant garde.. But the sage at the end knows about God's 'bad machines'..
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Post by driscollmusick on Feb 13, 2019 1:07:17 GMT
Interesting time line progression.. so he started off composing, 'avant garde' - so immediately rejecting tonality, but judging by his eventual return, I wonder if he prematurely cut it off (tonality) , and then, finally needed to proclaim the 'modernism' of wrapping oneself, Exclusively,in the security of the tonality blanket.. and 'born again'. That's my dimestore Sigmund talking…so to be taken w a grain (or pillar, if you prefer) of salt.. Sometimes 'ritual' reminds me of the scene from "Midnight Express'.. Perhaps this is the moment (metaphorically) when Martynov made his decision for the avant garde.. But the sage at the end knows about God's 'bad machines'.. G, this clip reminds me of logging into Composer's Forum, if anything...
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