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Post by driscollmusick on Jun 17, 2018 21:07:54 GMT
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Post by Tim Marko on Jun 17, 2018 21:37:03 GMT
Piano? It doesn't seem to be in the same hall.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 17, 2018 21:49:44 GMT
Biggest issue for me are the strings - the attack/release is quite jarring when notes stop dead for a split-second before the next. Increased release time will do something towards that. A related niggle is the reverb being light to non-existent, since the ear is trained to expect a wet sound in a large string section - and indeed, a large string section by default is only really going to fit somewhere with some reverb! The piano when mixed into the rest loses some frequency and sounds a little tentative, less like a concert grand and more an electric keyboard imitating one. I've never been able to find a really good piano sound, even in my good samples.
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Post by driscollmusick on Jun 17, 2018 22:21:13 GMT
Thanks, gents. Now I'm turning off all comments on this post because you are obviously not providing me the accolades I require (kidding). Yeah, I am having real trouble with the string legato transitions--will keep working at it.
This is Piano in Blue (my only not low-end piano right now) and it doesn't fit so well in a concert hall scenario. Some more reverb may help that and Dave's comment.
I really liked the EW Pianos Steinway, but I canceled my Composer Cloud membership... maybe I should get back in?
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Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 17, 2018 22:35:51 GMT
Reverb is certainly part of it, but maybe you're just not using the right samples for this task? It took me a while to find samples that would approach that lovely flowing bowed sound. Remind me what you use? Room for improvement though there is, I can still tolerate whatever samples and minimal expression I used here: soundcloud.com/davedextermusic/all-the-broken#t=1:50 and that was probably just slow attack and long release plus reverb, and a vibrato automation curve for the expressive parts.
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Post by driscollmusick on Jun 18, 2018 12:29:05 GMT
I am using the legato of Spitfire Symphonic Strings here. Part of it is that velocity/CC1 or something affects the legato transitions and I can't seem to get control over that.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 18, 2018 12:51:49 GMT
I am using the legato of Spitfire Symphonic Strings here. Part of it is that velocity/CC1 or something affects the legato transitions and I can't seem to get control over that. Hmm. From what I've heard they're excellent libraries so this seems like something Ray or Mike would know something about...
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Post by Mike Hewer on Jun 18, 2018 15:03:25 GMT
hi John,
Just a thought, are you pushing your systems memory hard perhaps? I tried my SSS and didn't have problems with transitions (at least not to my ears). Did you try the 'longs' instead? - I wonder if they might be an improvement for you, especially as they have release control. Re the piano, a simple trick that might help would be to reduce the amount of dry signal on a reverb plug-in. Also, set the pre-delay to a small value, see if that helps. Don't forget to use the proximity plug-in to recede the sound even further. A combo of less dry signal and some proximity might help get your piano into a faux Air Lyndhurst. I'd suggest some cc11 work on the shorts or the longs to blend the phrases a little more naturally, especially as the SFA shorts are very uneven, limited in dynamic range and quite hard to control effectively in a phrase. I'm thinking of the area around 3'20" in particular with the 2 short notes and one long note phrasing. I'd also suggest going quieter with the strings when the piano is playing delicately. Are your winds on a similar mic mix to SSS? It is all personal preference of course, but to me the winds sounded just a teeny bit too dry for the SSS settings, especially on the fluttertongue at the end. At one point I also felt the flute was getting swamped, or at least felt un-natural in the sound -perhaps some doubling or register change might help. Good arrangement though John and maybe...nice piece...errmmm.... Gregorio??? the excellent counterpoint is a possible clue.
EDIT....re cc11. You will need a glue reverb to cover the acoustic hole when using cc11 as it also pulls down the room mics. unless you are subtle with it.
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Post by gx on Jun 18, 2018 15:46:09 GMT
No, not me, Mike.. But I do know its composers (i believe it was a collaborative effort)… as I did take a look at this one before.. For me, it is the piano in relation to the ensemble..thinking it could have more presence and rev. Especially noticeable around 4'20".. Also the flutter tongue did seem to stick out.. (on a side note, and not that you were asking, but I was wondering about its (flutterT) appropriateness compositionally.
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Post by driscollmusick on Jun 18, 2018 16:52:37 GMT
hi John, Just a thought, are you pushing your systems memory hard perhaps? I tried my SSS and didn't have problems with transitions (at least not to my ears). Did you try the 'longs' instead? - I wonder if they might be an improvement for you, especially as they have release control. Re the piano, a simple trick that might help would be to reduce the amount of dry signal on a reverb plug-in. Also, set the pre-delay to a small value, see if that helps. Don't forget to use the proximity plug-in to recede the sound even further. A combo of less dry signal and some proximity might help get your piano into a faux Air Lyndhurst. I'd suggest some cc11 work on the shorts or the longs to blend the phrases a little more naturally, especially as the SFA shorts are very uneven, limited in dynamic range and quite hard to control effectively in a phrase. I'm thinking of the area around 3'20" in particular with the 2 short notes and one long note phrasing. I'd also suggest going quieter with the strings when the piano is playing delicately. Are your winds on a similar mic mix to SSS? It is all personal preference of course, but to me the winds sounded just a teeny bit too dry for the SSS settings, especially on the fluttertongue at the end. At one point I also felt the flute was getting swamped, or at least felt un-natural in the sound -perhaps some doubling or register change might help. Good arrangement though John and maybe...nice piece...errmmm.... Gregorio??? the excellent counterpoint is a possible clue. EDIT....re cc11. You will need a glue reverb to cover the acoustic hole when using cc11 as it also pulls down the room mics. unless you are subtle with it. Thanks for the suggestions, Mike. No, I don't think it's a system overload (I run my samples off a souped up slave computer, but my main computer is also pretty robust spec-wise). You know how I do the whole notation software powering the DAW thing? Well, because of that I can't see the MIDI data in real time. And I'm convinced some CC under the hood is causing the legato transitions to be abrupt. One thing that is frustrating about SSS is the lack of a staccato articulation (as opposed to spiccato (quite short and almost accented) or their brush short, which is nice but can't rise above mf). I also have the Chamber Strings and might try that--perhaps better suited for this small ensemble. The winds are just a single solo flute. I was limited in my ability to change the orchestration as written, so there are some register considerations (including some of the piano writing) I would have handled differently if it were my own work.
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Post by driscollmusick on Jun 18, 2018 16:53:54 GMT
No, not me, Mike.. But I do know its composers (i believe it was a collaborative effort)… as I did take a look at this one before.. For me, it is the piano in relation to the ensemble..thinking it could have more presence and rev. Especially noticeable around 4'20".. Also the flutter tongue did seem to stick out.. (on a side note, and not that you were asking, but I was wondering about its (flutterT) appropriateness compositionally. All fair points, but I can't really change the orchestration--just trying to "realize" it as effectively as possible!
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Post by Mike Hewer on Jun 19, 2018 8:06:57 GMT
hi John, Just a thought, are you pushing your systems memory hard perhaps? I tried my SSS and didn't have problems with transitions (at least not to my ears). Did you try the 'longs' instead? - I wonder if they might be an improvement for you, especially as they have release control. Re the piano, a simple trick that might help would be to reduce the amount of dry signal on a reverb plug-in. Also, set the pre-delay to a small value, see if that helps. Don't forget to use the proximity plug-in to recede the sound even further. A combo of less dry signal and some proximity might help get your piano into a faux Air Lyndhurst. I'd suggest some cc11 work on the shorts or the longs to blend the phrases a little more naturally, especially as the SFA shorts are very uneven, limited in dynamic range and quite hard to control effectively in a phrase. I'm thinking of the area around 3'20" in particular with the 2 short notes and one long note phrasing. I'd also suggest going quieter with the strings when the piano is playing delicately. Are your winds on a similar mic mix to SSS? It is all personal preference of course, but to me the winds sounded just a teeny bit too dry for the SSS settings, especially on the fluttertongue at the end. At one point I also felt the flute was getting swamped, or at least felt un-natural in the sound -perhaps some doubling or register change might help. Good arrangement though John and maybe...nice piece...errmmm.... Gregorio??? the excellent counterpoint is a possible clue. EDIT....re cc11. You will need a glue reverb to cover the acoustic hole when using cc11 as it also pulls down the room mics. unless you are subtle with it. Thanks for the suggestions, Mike. No, I don't think it's a system overload (I run my samples off a souped up slave computer, but my main computer is also pretty robust spec-wise). You know how I do the whole notation software powering the DAW thing? Well, because of that I can't see the MIDI data in real time. And I'm convinced some CC under the hood is causing the legato transitions to be abrupt. One thing that is frustrating about SSS is the lack of a staccato articulation (as opposed to spiccato (quite short and almost accented) or their brush short, which is nice but can't rise above mf). I also have the Chamber Strings and might try that--perhaps better suited for this small ensemble. The winds are just a single solo flute. I was limited in my ability to change the orchestration as written, so there are some register considerations (including some of the piano writing) I would have handled differently if it were my own work. Probably stating the obvious, but what about a conflict between your NS cc definitions and DAW, just spittin' in the wind. You've clearly trawled through all preferences in both systems no doubt, do you think you might have missed something there? At present I can't think what might interfere with SFA's performance legato that is unseen. Double check a cc value isn't assigned to 2 different controllers if you can, but even then, SFA's legato patch only has dynamics, vib and expression sliders so I can't see much going wrong there. I have never bothered to tweak the presets options on the GUI have you tried different settings there?, might make a difference. Is the cc mapped velocity checked on the gUI and do you use cc1 for dynamic x fade? Sorry for the stupid questions, but it might trigger something. Yes, the spicc articulations sound great but suck to programme because of the limited dynamic range. I have spent far too much time trying to get them to be a little more musical in a phrase. the only option to lengthen the spicc is with the time machine, which does work reasonably well, especially as all of the short artics can be lengthened/shortened. I layer Chamber str sometimes and don't forget the transposition trick to double the size for divisi. Sorry I can't be of much help here, but i will muse on it and see if there is something else...oh wait...what about your actual midi settings in your DAWs midi environment (sorry, Logic terminology) and the midi cabling???
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Post by driscollmusick on Jun 19, 2018 15:35:04 GMT
So I think I've figured out that the issue was CC17 ("Release" in SSS) which was somehow set to 0. But I've played around with adjusting that in Finale and the legato is much better. 127 for the really smooth sustained passages, and shorter where I want a little more articulation of the note patterns.
I am awaiting comments from the composers and then will post a new mockup when it is available. Thanks again for the comments, folks!
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Post by Bob Porter on Jun 19, 2018 23:36:45 GMT
I realize that I don't belong in this thread, but I'd like to leave a thought or two from an outsider. I listened with my Sennheisers on my desktop with a decent sound card. Often I don't care for the reverb DAW folks use. The reverb in this case seems to me to over emphasize upper frequencies, making them a bit harsh. I noticed the difference between the piano and the orchestra sound, but it didn't bother me so much. But what really distracted me was the constant swell on tutti string notes. I know that there are differing schools of thought on when and where to do that. In this case, I think less is more. Maybe once 'n a while, not all the time. Seems unnatural as it is. I know you can't change the composition, nor should you. I like the combination of piano and orchestra, just not this combination. Is it piano and orchestra? Is it orchestra with under-tones of piano? It can't seem to make up it's mind Plus I think flutter-tongue is one of the most un musical sounds there is.
But feel free to ignore everything I've said. These are just my impressions.
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