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Post by driscollmusick on Nov 14, 2017 17:10:52 GMT
I've recently been working to incorporate synths into some orchestral mockups. Anyone have tips on how to do that effectively?
Right now I try to think of the synths as just another set of acoustic instruments (depending on tone/articulation/etc), but I often feel as though they sit displaced from the mix (even after playing around with panning/reverb).
Should they mostly be background? Does doubling a synth with a solo instrument every make sense? Is it crazy to mix acoustic strings with string pad sounds? Personally these doublings almost always kill the beauty of the acoustic instruments, but maybe I'm doing something wrong?
Any tips, tricks or otherwise well-known principles would be most appreciated!
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Post by Bob Porter on Nov 14, 2017 18:33:14 GMT
I imagine you would treat them like any other section of the orchestra. WWs do certain things really well so they have parts of a piece that feature them. The same with brass and strings. And synths. It can change the style of music you write.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Nov 15, 2017 13:43:20 GMT
John, I'm rambling a bit, but do read on... I'm not sure there are any set rules, I mean surely it is a matter of perspective and what you want to achieve. I remember in my early days, me and my engineer having long boozy talks about trying to combine these differing paradigms and we came to the conclusion that having synths sunk back in the same space and subtle in level was the only option when using orchestral samples. Mind you that was dependant on how they where being used, in my case I remember they were essentially animated pads. But on the other hand, the perspective changed when synths were to be featured and the orchestra not so much. A possible case for clear audio/acoustic demarcation (and processing) in the roles of the 2 sets of sound becomes apparent when there are sequenced synths and rhythm as a driving element, or if synths have any other distinct musical roles. Then again another engineer may have different ideas when mixing such a track and then again there is Zimmer and Newman. As a general principle, I adhere to what you have said about doubling a solo with a synth and again this is personal preference, but bear in mind that colour/timbral change can be effective with a synth if used with discretion (again, a personal opinion!). Putting a pad under strings can be effective and is done a lot, but as you have said, with the quality of todays string samples, why ruin a beautiful sound! Well maybe because you want to change the timbre of sampled strings for a psychological/emotional reason in a film cue, a pad can be quite handy in that regard if it feels part of the orchestra imo. Or you could rely on processing that particular chord with distortion, but that is another approach and off topic. The right sounding synth is obviously key to success. Almost every parameter of a synth can be controlled in realtime which allows for a sense of performance, just like an orchestral player will vary tone, vibrato, dynamics etc, so too is there an equivalent for synths along with many more options for sound sculpting. Playing in a synth out of the box and not doing anything else to it will probably not work so well, but performing one might just make the difference. Expressive music can be had with real time variants on LFO, formant manipulation, pitch, distortion etc. Another consideration when choosing a synth sound is how much bandwidth it takes up, what register it is strongest in and does it need EQ. In other words, think like an orchestrator when considering synth additions and when performing in a line, think about what its contribution is musically and how a player might achieve that if it is a lead line. Be careful of octaves in synths as a lot of patches come with that overtone which will thicken the scoring so be prepared to make space one way or another if it gets gloopy. One way to avoid muddiness is to choose what synths/rhythm you want to work with first and then score in the orchestral parts gradually, or some similar approach but other ways can work too of course. I have mentioned before, but will again in case you missed it, that I met Jerry Goldsmith whilst he was recording Medicine Man in London and he had a handful of synth players playing live in the room with the orchestra. In Goldsmiths' case the instruments where treated as acoustic (through amps) and recorded as such in the main tree along with the band. Clearly acoustic integration was important for Goldsmith and his work is masterly regarding synth integration. He was fortunate enough to have whatever he needed to make his music work but today possibilities abound for everyone and as always ears should be the final arbiter - the timbral possibilities are infinite - the way you get there has many roads. It is such a huge subject John but I hope some of this at least is useful and that others will chime in with their experiences. å
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Post by driscollmusick on Nov 16, 2017 15:23:07 GMT
Thanks, Bob, and many thanks for the ramble, Mike! Ultimately, I do think it will come to questions of personal taste, but in the meantime, I am trying to expand my toolkit (as they say).
A friend bought me a subscription to the Zimmer online Masterclass and it was very interesting for me to see how he approaches his music. He works almost as a sound designer, developing the sound of the synth-type instrument he wants, before (it seems) he even writes the music. This is quite different than my old-school approach of writing "for the instrument" but there is certainly insight to be gained there.
Right now I am using pre-developed synths. I fiddled around with SYNTH1 earlier this year, but found it very hard to maintain my bearings and integrate effectively into my workflow. Maybe I need to get a "Synth for Dummies" book or some such...
When I get a little farther along, I will post the current synth-y track I'm working on for feedback. Thanks again for the perspectives!
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Post by Dave Dexter on Nov 16, 2017 16:05:46 GMT
The few times I've added synth to an orchestral track I've treated it just as another instrument with a discrete source to be placed in the virtual space as with all the other "real" ones - pretty much the Goldsmith approach as detailed by Mike, although the virtual approach. So it's a virtual approach to virtual instruments in a real space, rather than a physical approach to real virtual instruments in a real space. You get the idea. Best example in my repertoire is this, a theremin in a large orchestra. Mixed to the left and subject to the same reverb, so I think it blends well. You could go further down that path by maybe running through different speaker simulations, rather than treating it as a floating sound without no physical origin.
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