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Post by mcanales on Oct 11, 2017 15:12:25 GMT
Hi everyone.
Noting that there are a number of guitarists here and also noting that we all use midi versions of our work to demonstrate larger orchestral scores I have a question:
How do you feel about the use of instruments such as electric guitars, bass, keyboards, orchestral etc in what are traditionally 'classical" music forms such as opera, symphony, and chamber music? Speaking of course about new works, not the traditional rep.
I am an advocate for expanding the opera orchestra to include not only these instruments, but even amplification of the voices. While I understand very well the impact of a great dramatic voice singing without amplification (I'm married to such a singer) I argue that while traditional opera still seeks to at least in theory *not* amplify the voices Broadway musicals are all in on modern sound amplification and therefore able to make a more modernist volume impact upon the audience. Perhaps opera needs to get with the program and exploit modern sound equipment more honestly. (Big houses BTW often do sweeten the sound with secretive amplification of the singers...they just don't like to admit it)
I'd love to know what your thoughts are on this subject.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 11, 2017 16:46:38 GMT
I love electric guitar and bands with orchestra - some of my favourite recordings are bands like Deep Purple and Kiss playing with symphonies. The downside, personally, is the prevalence of "neoclassical" music - which tends to ape the overall feel of Classical music without being as memorable or as good. But hey, it's cool because this guy is playing Mozart on a Fender, the kids love it or something.
I've always preferred the concerts I've attended that didn't amplify or use microphones (none of them have been opera, though.) Pure acoustic sound is preferable to me. Even in the Royal Albert Hall, their PA - which they have to use due to the size of the venue - is still obvious to me as a slightly digitised reproduction. Wherever possible, I think sound reproduction should be avoided.
The kind of close-mic setup that Broadway shows tend to run can lead to another drawback in my eyes - the complete freedom to edit a performance in post to "fix" things. A good example is Tim Minchin's performance as Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar - for the dvd release he was autotuned. He wasn't happy about it; he's an excellent singer, and the rawness of his voice was part of the performance then lost under very obvious autotune. But then, musicals are different to opera and both are different to instrumentals.
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Post by David Unger on Oct 11, 2017 17:59:05 GMT
I have nothing against electricity being used (with synths, guitars or as vocal amplification) if the music is "supposed" uo sound that way because the composer had a certain sound in mind. Electronics and electric instruments have been and are being used with great success many times I think. My favourite example is the requiem by Schittke that uses electric bass without it making the music sound "lesser" than other classical music of the time (1970's). But saying that opera houses should somehow "get with their times" just for the sake of it I don't agree with. Here in Sweden many opers houses already have modernised by putting on musicals (with a lot of synths and microphones, electric guitars and so on) alongside the traditional operas which are acoustic. Therefore I think nothing would stand in the way (certainly not me) of composers writing "classical" scores that demand the same equipment. Just don't mess with what doesn't need messing with is my standpoint.
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Post by Bob Porter on Oct 14, 2017 15:26:37 GMT
Contrary to popular belief, electric instruments do not have to be loud. There are pedals that allow a guitar to have the same sweet sound that high volume produces, but at a lower volume. A drum kit can be played well at lower volume. I've heard it and done it. Aside from that. I've played in many a pit where a full compliment of players could not be had. Electric keyboards filled in.
As far as classic opera form and symphonic music? Is there a serious concerto for distortion guitar and orchestra? I mean well written and well received by the general concert going public (which is staying away from classical music in droves)? Maybe. But classical music has always been for a niche audience.
And here's something else. Education in this country is moving away from the arts as being unimportant. The focus is more on math and science. The general public can't hardly identify an oboe as it is now. OK, maybe that's obscure to begin with. But still, the implications are staggering.
But to answer the question, I have no problem mixing acoustic and electric instruments. Especially in new genres that use them to the best advantage. And loud is good.
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Post by fuguestate on Oct 14, 2017 21:43:10 GMT
It would be awesome if somebody, maybe one of us here, could write a concerto for distortion guitar that's convincing and accessible to the audience.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 14, 2017 22:40:24 GMT
It would be awesome if somebody, maybe one of us here, could write a concerto for distortion guitar that's convincing and accessible to the audience. I'd totally do that. The best we have currently is something like Yngwie Malmsteen's concerto, which was rad when I was 18 but now a bit meh.
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Post by fuguestate on Oct 14, 2017 22:52:16 GMT
Awesome! Would love to hear the results. Keep us informed!
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 15, 2017 7:36:00 GMT
Stephen Mackey has done 2 concertos according to here... linkI don't know them, but I immediately thought of him upon reading above. I have heard some of his other work and if these pieces are similar, you might need to put your steel ears on. He is quite an innovator.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 15, 2017 8:01:53 GMT
I couldn't find recordings of those concertos Mike, but I'm sure they'll turn up.
The trick would be composing an actual concerto for the instrument's strengths as opposed to a piece of sweet orchestral music that I just alternate between playing the melody and improving over - I'd almost certainly do the latter.
I forgot to mention the imo greatest examples of electric guitar in traditional instrumentation - the Spaghetti Westerns. The X-men First Class score uses guitar amazingly, always for its qualities and never just because it's cool, with deep doomy riffs and mournful picking patterns.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 15, 2017 19:42:18 GMT
Don't forget 007. I did a track for Mercedes once, written for big band (jazz) and metal guitar, although the final mix just had a few riffs left after darned revisions for the client. Getting back to the OP, Jonathan Harvey has worked at IRCAM a lot and produced contemporary work with electronics and John Adams has used synths and samplers in his work. It can be done well but needs to be produced carefully. I met Jerry Goldsmith whilst he was recording Medicine Man and witnessed a bank of synth players in the live room with the orchestra. They had amplification and were recorded with the band as part of the ensemble and not as overdubs. That is the secret when merging live and electronic I feel, get the harmonics mingling and monkeying with each other.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Oct 16, 2017 17:41:02 GMT
Bond goes without saying. The Mercedes job sounds cool, even with revisions!
There's occasional highly buried moments of synth and electric guitar in some Star Wars scores - the example springing to mind is Luke's vision on Dagobah, cue titled "The Magic Tree". It seems highly inappropriate, maybe even Williams can be messed with in post. Or maybe I'm a provincial fool.
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Post by Bob Porter on Oct 16, 2017 21:46:14 GMT
As far as a distortion guitar concerto goes, what would constitute "well written"? And how lasting would it be? Will distortion guitar be out of favor in 20 years? A sad day, indeed. J.C. Superstar has been around some 40 years. But a concerto? And would it be rock band and orchestra? Or just guitar and orchestra. How much improv?
Classical style? Sound track style? Rock band transcribed for orchestra? Or no orchestra? Concerto for rock band.
I'm an old guy, so I use the term, "rock band". By which I mean, bass, drums, keyboards, two guitars. As a minimum.
Vocals? Remember "Hocus Pocus" by Focus? The guy yodels, and it'd awesome.
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Post by pantonal on Oct 17, 2017 14:25:58 GMT
As far as a distortion guitar concerto goes, what would constitute "well written"? And how lasting would it be? Will distortion guitar be out of favor in 20 years? A sad day, indeed. J.C. Superstar has been around some 40 years. But a concerto? And would it be rock band and orchestra? Or just guitar and orchestra. How much improv? Classical style? Sound track style? Rock band transcribed for orchestra? Or no orchestra? Concerto for rock band. I'm an old guy, so I use the term, "rock band". By which I mean, bass, drums, keyboards, two guitars. As a minimum. Vocals? Remember "Hocus Pocus" by Focus? The guy yodels, and it'd awesome. Good questions! Distortion guitar has been in vogue for at least half a century (anyone remember Jimi Hendrix and/or Cream from the 1960s?). I don't think it's going anywhere. Heck Procul Harum* recorded an album with the Edmonton Symphony back then. As for whether it would be a band with orchestra vs. solo guitar I'd prefer the latter. While a band could certainly compete with an orchestra in terms of volume and a composer could have fun juxtaposing the two sounds it seems to me both are complete ensembles in their own right, thus perhaps a bit redundant unless you're going for a two mass ensemble thing such as the St Matthew Passion. I would think given the cost challenges a solo guitar with orchestra concerto model would have a better chance of actually being performed regularly. Your question regarding improvisation is also relevant. Rock guitarists are obviously very comfortable with improvisation but orchestras are not. It would seem to me that improvisation would best be limited to cadenzas, but at that time guitarists would be free to let it all out. Having written some music for guitar and classical instruments (brass) it was fun and effective. An electric guitar can have so many different sounds that the ensemble opportunities with an orchestra are many. The same would go with a synthesizer concerto, except that the continuing development of synth technology could cause an issue down the road with recreating the sound of obsolete equipment. Having said that many have been preserved as VIs,... so maybe it's not a problem. I've read that orchestras can have real challenges performing 'An American in Paris' because there are very few sources for the Parisian car horns and those available are not in good repair. The basic sound of a distorted guitar hasn't changed much and even the clean sounds available haven't changed much since chorus and flanging came into common use back in the 1970s or 80s. One last point, the OP was obviously asking about electric guitars with virtual orchestras. This is something most here would have the capability to produce given the time. And make no mistake it would take a lot of time to compose a concerto and then realize it. Still the idea is intriguing!! Could this have potential as a competition? Would a year be enough time to realize a single movement of such a project given that most of us are also involved with other musical endeavors? Just throwing out the idea!! * This brought up a favorite memory of a concert with Yes, King Crimson and Procol Harum appearing (IIRC, in that order, PH headlined).
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Post by fuguestate on Oct 17, 2017 16:17:07 GMT
I know very little about electric guitars (only an amateur at acoustic), but the improvisation element will definitely be an interesting factor in a concerto. I'd even say it's precisely the improvisation element that makes a prospective concerto interesting. The guitarist could be given the liberty to improvise at will, provided he understands the larger context of his part in the context and knows when to go all-out on the improvisation, and when to exercise more restraint. Perhaps the concerto could feature many solo cadenzas where the guitarist can go crazy.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Oct 18, 2017 12:44:44 GMT
Probably a little off topic, sorry, but watched WonderWoman last night. She has a guitar led theme..whayhay. Dear OP, blame Dave for mentioning film scores... Anybody ever heard Andre Previns' concerto for jazz guitar trio and orchestra?
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