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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 22, 2019 21:36:39 GMT
I mentioned this a little earlier - after sitting on the finished score for a few weeks to let it mellow, I still like it, so here it is. The mockup is with sampled medieval recorder, which was preferable to organ or terrible choral libraries. soundcloud.com/davedextermusic/descendentem-sicut-columbam-private-demo/s-R6EFbContext: a choral contest for a new setting of text associated with the baptism of Christ, sub four minutes, SATB octet, no divisi (solos allowed), appropriate for their liturgy and for a professional choir. I went rogue and chose my own verses in latin - maybe a gamble, but their liturgy includes latin settings by Tallis etc. I wanted to range from "simple" homophony b1-10, burgeoning polyphony from solo voices b10-20, then more ornamented polyphony until about b32. The busier writing doesn't come naturally to me, partially because I'm fighting against my samples and trying to remember that even simple choral writing is elevated by the singers. Where I'm uncertain are the time signatures between b21-32, for example 8/8 in b28-30. 8/8 seems a fairly theoretical signature and I used it mainly for clarity. If the you feel this piece is tricky because it's hard, that's fine, if a stupid risk to take when I could have written strong easy homophony without much second-guessing. But tricky because I messed up the signatures? a disaster. Any correction or reassurance would be great! I may have to use compound sigs for additional clarity - to be continued. I haven't added breath marks in the more unrelenting sections - as an octet they could handle it, but it is on the list.
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Post by gx on Sept 22, 2019 23:38:40 GMT
Dave, I'm a bit crunched for time, (going out of town) but on the surface I don't see why a professional choir would have trouble w your shifting time signatures. When I get back, I can offer a more detailed response.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 23, 2019 12:08:21 GMT
Dave, I'm a bit crunched for time, (going out of town) but on the surface I don't see why a professional choir would have trouble w your shifting time signatures. When I get back, I can offer a more detailed response. Any time you can spare is probably more than I deserve, but that's a reassuring first impression!
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Post by Tim Marko on Sept 23, 2019 16:56:53 GMT
Nice, Dave.
An option for the time sigs if they are a concern to you; make them all over 8, ie. 8/8, 7/8, 10/8, etc. The 1/8 note pulse would stay constant without having to go to a compound feel. I agree with g, they shouldn't be a problem for a pro level group, but it may make the piece read easier for a lesser group.
Just a nit, the final cadence you end with a doubled third. Doubling the Eb (tonic) will be much stronger as a final resolution. (perhaps the tenor could move up to the Eb into 37?)
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Post by Mike Hewer on Sept 24, 2019 13:10:42 GMT
Quirky Dave, especially the rhythm. I thought it actually worked quite nicely on recorders and would probably sound nice on a harmonium too - lovely with a choir though.
Tim's suggestion is a valid one of course re the time sigs but I personally would bar it differently in places because the crotchet beat is slow enough to be broken into the odd quaver beat. So at b19 for example, I would have a 3/4 followed by a 3/8 and at b20, a 2/4 followed by a 3/8. Continuing on, Tim's suggestion seems best although at b28 perhaps 4/4 again for the conducting pattern. B 9-10 should definitely be 3 bars of 4/4, as opposed to 2 bars of 6/4 and b31 could be a 3/4.
I'd also do as Tim suggests on the final chord for the tenor.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 24, 2019 15:57:57 GMT
Thanks both, I will definitely try some combination of those suggestions. I deliberately don't search hard for things like parallel/consecutive octaves, fifths, thirds as I suffer enough under the yoke of our musical ancestors and would just self-immolate from imposter syndrome but I'll try that final change. Tim, I probably won't put all into 8 as some parts are so simple it would seem odd, but later on where things get hairy I'll pair with Mike's take ... The choir in question is one of St Paul's Cathedral - I'm writing another piece for a lesser known choir and better believe I'm making that one easier. Is the consensus that, whilst I could and will re-sig in places, I have not produced musical nonsense and decent singers could handle it as is? If so that's a nice boost. Another query, for choral I'm uncertain of using key signatures or a C score with accidentals. I tend to the latter as it seems clearer, but what do I know.
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Post by Bob Porter on Sept 24, 2019 16:52:20 GMT
Dave, I've never sung in a liturgical choir, but any choir I've sung in uses key signatures. Personally, the instrumentalist in me is less confused that way. Many singers also play an instrument to some extent.
Nice work. Seems to fit the style you are going after. Definitely not nonsense. I'm not wild about constant meter changes, but I suspect that's just me.
I would like to hear this with choir sample. As it is, I think the alto or soprano in in the wrong octave.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 24, 2019 17:35:52 GMT
Dave, I've never sung in a liturgical choir, but any choir I've sung in uses key signatures. Personally, the instrumentalist in me is less confused that way. Many singers also play an instrument to some extent. Nice work. Seems to fit the style you are going after. Definitely not nonsense. I'm not wild about constant meter changes, but I suspect that's just me. I would like to hear this with choir sample. As it is, I think the alto or soprano in in the wrong octave. I'm normally quite regimented, but choral writing brings out this very loose meter approach, whether because I'm operating to the rhythm that the text imparts to me or I'm trying to capture the cadence of speech or who knows. I'm glad you like it and that's one point for key sigs. Re wrong octave, how do you mean? They should be taking higher parts?
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Post by driscollmusick on Sept 24, 2019 20:57:22 GMT
Hey Dave,
Some comments on the notation (sorry, not trying to pile on, just been spending a lot of time with Elaine Gould's book and trying to get it right myself):
1) I think this is really a piece in Eb Major and should have the key signature. Because this piece is very tonal, it will actually make it easier for singers to sightread (flagging the few A-naturals when they appear vs. highlighting accidentals on every note) 2) When multiple notes are sung with a single, same syllable, the notes have to be slurred. Not having slurs is unclear and suggests re-articulating the syllable with each note (e.g., "col - um - um - um - bam - bam - bam -bam") 3) I find the changing time signatures hard to see well because they are actually less bold than your staff lines (when it should be the opposite). 4) There's a lot of odd bar spacing that will throw many singers off the rhythm (for example, in measure 4, the half note is way too squished for its sounding length; in measure 6, the weird spacing of the eighth notes in the tenor line doesn't reflect the rhythm visually; etc) 5) "Dei" is two syllables in Latin, so needs to be split to be clear what is "De" vs "i" 6) "Solo" should not be italics and doesn't need a period (full stop). You should use "Tutti" instead of "unis." ("unis" in a choral setting is for clarification after a divisi (not after a solo)) 7) "rall." should be bold, not italics and a larger font 8) You have solos becoming tuttis in the middle of a word. I assume that's intentional, but it's an uncommon enough technique (in an otherwise straightforward piece) that you might want to create separate staves for the solo parts to make it clear that it's not a typo. 9) I would double-check all of your lines for typos. Just as an example, bar 2/bass, the "-sus" I think it supposed to be in bar 3 with the rest of the chorus? Bar 9/soprano, are the 2nd/3rd Bb's supposed to be tied? Similarly in bar 15?
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Post by Mike Hewer on Sept 25, 2019 12:24:17 GMT
John's pretty much nailed the rest of it. Although..... One more thing to consider is awkward singing intervals. The tenor in b6 feels a little awkward (it is singable of course) and I can't help feel it'd be better just staying on the bflat for beats 3 +4 as a minim. There is a wide gap between ten and bass on the 3rd beat of b15 and a potential problematic leap for the altos from eflat to b natural. Again, it is singable but the spacing in that bar could be improved and at the same time, eradicating the alto leap. I'd suggest that the bass a +g go up an octave (will help the crescendo), the tenor sings the alto eflat and resolves it to d, the alto sings the first 2 beats of the tenor part up an octave and finishes on the b natural above the a natural and the soprano stays as is. This sorts out awkward voice leading and fills out the chord. The intensity increase with the pitch rises will enhance the crescendo too. There are parallel 5ths and octaves btw but even though it's not the 16thC your parts and ensemble would be improved if you eradicated them with alternative lines. specifically bars 25+26, the octaves between alto and bass, (and the rather thin spacing for all in b26). The parallel 5ths between ten and bass at b31-32. There may be more but those two examples leapt out immediately....... I bet you're glad you posted eh?.....
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 25, 2019 19:45:07 GMT
OH GOD Thy will be done. Hmm. This clashes with most of my research and advice. I think I still need to repair it, but this is what the fixer alto for my choral session said when I asked her afterwards: "There are a few examples where you should use slurs or just extend the note value . . . As for melismas, I believe that the continuous line should be used like this when it is a one-syllable word or the final syllable of a word . . . The dotted line should be used when a melisma happens on a syllable that is not the final syllable of a word." So for her, slurs were for consecutive same notes on the same syllable, something I try to never do. More on that below! About half of the time, slurs are used interchangeably with long lines in choral scores. I haven't followed her advice because I forgot about it until today In this example, I got it right in the top staff but not in the bottom (T & B, b6) Fixed, good call. Also good call, I'll do some shuffling. Whoops, I'll get on that. I'll check again, but this mostly clashes with my own research and experience of direction formatting in scores. Tutti seems right. I might just change them, if it's unusual, I think the tutti entry points were a bit arbitrary. Lifesaver. B2/bass is correct but your other examples are clangers on my part. I don't like lines that repeat notes on the same syllable, and judging by how seldom I see them in classic works there's a good reason. B9 Bbs is where a slur would apparently go, but I've now extended the note to avoid confusion. Singing "li - i -" would work, but "li - li" wouldn't. I'll definitely trawl and fix for big jumps. Red face. This was the big one. Why have I resisted 5th and 8va restrictions so long? I had this idea they were born of stuffy formalisation and were followed at least in part as a principle to demonstrate craft but nope, there's excellent reasons, certainly for this kind of music. I tried some fixes for your spots and it sounded better, and there's definitely more - b34 is quite egregious. These last two posts did send me into the shame hole for a few hours, but that's because I want to be the best and I still f*** things up. Tough critique is only fully disdained by morons, it's why Ning became so frustrating. That said, after revisiting I still like my voicing of the final chord so I reserve the right to be 20% moron. A good compromise is root, 3rd, root 8ve, 5th, a voicing Tallis uses a lot. Probably everyone used it a lot. Seriously, thank you all.
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Post by Bob Porter on Sept 26, 2019 4:31:22 GMT
Dave,
I suspect that your original score looks nothing like what you've posted. Some PDF creators produce some clunky looking printouts. I think that might be why some are complaining about how things look. You have no phrasing marked at all. So it is consistent that you have none over multiple notes on one syllable. Singers know to no re-articulate a vowel (and to keep it open) when they see a word hyphenated. I don't know Latin so I have no idea if you've hyphenated words correctly, anyway. Like "festim". Is it fest-im, or fes-tim. It can make a difference on how you sing it. I'm a recorder player, or used to be. I still own a six piece set, garklein through bass. Soprano recorder sounds an octave higher than written. In your recording, the alto part seems too low, and loud. hard to hear the soprano, which seems to be in the correct octave. Recorders aren't really meant to double for a choir. All of which isn't really important. You where just trying to get the notes across.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Sept 26, 2019 7:05:59 GMT
These last two posts did send me into the shame hole for a few hours, but that's because I want to be the best and I still f*** things up. Tough critique is only fully disdained by morons, it's why Ning became so frustrating. That said, after revisiting I still like my voicing of the final chord so I reserve the right to be 20% moron. A good compromise is root, 3rd, root 8ve, 5th, a voicing Tallis uses a lot. Probably everyone used it a lot. Seriously, thank you all. Don't be too hard on yourself Dave, it's remarkable and encouraging that you can do what you do. 16thC vocal technique is a complicated study and takes a few years to get to grips with and needs a base knowledge of rudimentary notation and harmony. It starts with simple so called species counterpoint and progresses to complicated imitative work, I know, I went through it. You're right, the restrictions, although seemingly stuffy and limiting, are there because they are predicated upon good practice, proven in the workplace so to speak. (0ne thinks of Mahler here.."tradition is not the worship of ashes, it is the preservation of fire".) You are at a stage whereby you do need to know some technique though, but imv you do not need to know it to degree level as this would just stymie your instincts, perhaps resulting in more pastiche and less Dexter. The music we both love from the Renaissance is often very technically wrought and controlled and there is a serene, inevitable beauty because of this. Beauty can obviously be achieved without such know-how and for your immediate and practical purposes I'd suggest studying choral spacing, harmonic doubling and developing a sense of a good singable line. There's clearly more, a lot more to 16thC technique and choral writing in general, things like imitation, melodic inversion and canon still play a major role as technique in choral music today because they are idiomatic and actually developed from singing. If you can also incorporate some of the spirit of these techniques into your writing, your work will be even more effective. You've fallen in love with a music that requires taut control but there is no reason why the spirit of that music can't be re-created in a different way.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 26, 2019 9:48:27 GMT
I appreciate that. I've set myself to take a beating by comparison to the highest composers, and the strongest beatings will come from my own head.
I'm certainly trying to absorb more than mere appropriate tonality and progressions when I listen and break down. Importing scores into midi is a great help in revealing a composer's preference for spacing and is encouraging me to break out of quite narrow guidelines, but as you said there's so much more that I'll have to attack it bit by bit. In the meantime, you're right in that my goal is beauty, and I don't have to work traditionally to achieve it, but I should. To google!
My process for choral is, not including the huge amount of sketching and deleting: write the basic form, sort out time signatures, ornament/fix, add text. Though the text setting has to be considered from pretty early on.
Many choral pieces don't have any phrasing or directions, but if they're established they don't need them. Funny re recorder, my samples are rubbish and indeed just for the notes, but I love the real thing. I found an arrangement of Tallis for recorder quintet and it's a wonderfully rich sound. Fairly unusual to find recorder players, so you have my respect there.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Sept 26, 2019 13:57:11 GMT
Excellent idea importing midi. Try these files of Bach's harmonised chorales - a classic text on voice leading and choral writing. link
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