|
Post by driscollmusick on Jun 16, 2018 17:53:00 GMT
If you can provide fair and balanced critique of another composer's structure, rhythmic choices, instrumentation/orchestration, why not their notes? What makes the notes so "personal" and therefore "off-limits"?
NB, this is mostly a honey trap for Mike.
|
|
|
Post by Tim Marko on Jun 16, 2018 22:17:56 GMT
I think some feel that the notes are the real "music", and take it personally if they are questioned.
I've always posted hoping for any comments on anything in my work, notes included. You commented in the past about an enharmonic spelling in one of my pieces and I was glad to be forced to rethink what I had done. I feel if I can justify it, not from disagreement, but from a rational reasoning about why I did what I did, it will force me to possibly think differently the next time.
I do think the people here are more open to criticism without getting their "knickers in a twist", even if notes are the issue.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 17, 2018 19:58:49 GMT
I am generally wary of critiquing the notes. A composer can get all sorts of stuff wrong surrounding them, but the notes are likely to be the root of the piece's intent. If I think they're boring, or wrong, it could just mean the piece is not for me.
Of course, if something sounds out of place harmonically I might flag it, or if it was composed with an obvious intent that seems like it could be better served with a different approach.
The usual exception is orchestration-wise. If someone has the strings droning a Dmaj chord, I could suggest changing the intervals/articulation or writing the top lines as alternating arpeggios for colour or whatever. To me, that's like changing the pattern of a pie crust whilst leaving the filling unchanged. It doesn't affect the soul of the piece.
I've had to work at being ok with saying to people "No, this is how it's meant to be - but thank you" after they suggest changes or cutting sections. Especially if the piece is done and recorded!
|
|
|
Post by Tim Marko on Jun 17, 2018 20:41:00 GMT
Dave, I think much has to do with how we receive critique.
When I post a piece, I know that I will get a number of different opinions. I realize that not everybody hears what I write the way I perceived it, yet they heard what I put down, therefore, the opinion is valid. Whether I choose to do something with the opinion is up to me.
If we post, we need to get our ego out of the way and try to not take it personally. It's merely a response to what we ask for when posting. At the very least, each comment made gets put into the tool box for next time and gives us another point to think about, whether that be orchestration, melody, harmony, etc.
I've learned just as much from bad pieces as I have from good (possibly more). And many times, notes are a big part of the equation.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 17, 2018 21:02:01 GMT
If we post, we need to get our ego out of the way and try to not take it personally. It's merely a response to what we ask for when posting. At the very least, each comment made gets put into the tool box for next time and gives us another point to think about, whether that be orchestration, melody, harmony, etc. True of course, if I can get bored in a Mahler symphony I can't be above suggestions to change my own music, and when all's said and done I can simply ignore it. However, I've had critique that either stemmed from an atavistic loathing of the style in question, which when unpacked is of very little use to me; or stated "this is a cliche. Did you copy this from an instruction video?" again stemming from a dislike of the overall genre. "Cookie-cutter" . . . "off the shelf action music" . . . etc. That's critique with no intent of helping, and I try to avoid that. Disliking something doesn't qualify you to denigrate it, though often that feels like the system.
|
|
|
Post by driscollmusick on Jun 17, 2018 21:03:07 GMT
Dave, I think much has to do with how we receive critique. When I post a piece, I know that I will get a number of different opinions. I realize that not everybody hears what I write the way I perceived it, yet they heard what I put down, therefore, the opinion is valid. Whether I choose to do something with the opinion is up to me. If we post, we need to get our ego out of the way and try to not take it personally. It's merely a response to what we ask for when posting. At the very least, each comment made gets put into the tool box for next time and gives us another point to think about, whether that be orchestration, melody, harmony, etc. I've learned just as much from bad pieces as I have from good (possibly more). And many times, notes are a big part of the equation. I think I've said this before, but I really do think if you share a piece with just about anyone and they comment about something not quite working, they are basically right. Now the *reason* they give might be wrong (or inarticulately worded or whatever), but there is still a truth there that you at that specific moment you lost your audience. I am amazed how much information I can get just by having my girlfriend sit in the room and listen to something I've written. The minute she loses focus, I know there's something there I could improve...
|
|
|
Post by Tim Marko on Jun 17, 2018 21:33:30 GMT
If we post, we need to get our ego out of the way and try to not take it personally. It's merely a response to what we ask for when posting. At the very least, each comment made gets put into the tool box for next time and gives us another point to think about, whether that be orchestration, melody, harmony, etc. True of course, if I can get bored in a Mahler symphony I can't be above suggestions to change my own music, and when all's said and done I can simply ignore it. However, I've had critique that either stemmed from an atavistic loathing of the style in question, which when unpacked is of very little use to me; or stated "this is a cliche. Did you copy this from an instruction video?" again stemming from a dislike of the overall genre. "Cookie-cutter" . . . "off the shelf action music" . . . etc. That's critique with no intent of helping, and I try to avoid that. Disliking something doesn't qualify you to denigrate it, though often that feels like the system. Agreed. Just because it was commented on doesn't mean we have to accept it. I've learned there are some people who respond that I don't even bother with. Others I really try to figure out what I screwed up. John, You must be talking about my wife. I used to think she liked it just because, but I've learned to hear "It's fine, Honey." for what it really means!lol
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 17, 2018 21:42:33 GMT
If you have something to say (Tim - or indeed John, or many others here), I'm likely to slow down to consider it. So there's that.
I often play my music to my girlfriend. I am, after all, not composing for composers - it's for me, and for a general audience. Composers are a terrible audience, myself included, but an excellent motivation and self-improvement tool. A great composer enjoying my music is very much a bonus, and more often it feels like I'm serving a fried egg sandwich to a table of gourmet chefs.
|
|
|
Post by Tim Marko on Jun 17, 2018 21:48:01 GMT
That's what I was referring to when I talked about the composers here at this site. We all seem to have a true desire to improve regardless of who can help us do that. Everyone here comes with a different perspective but one which I believe is given with the intent to help (without the metaphysics!lol)
Glad this place is back!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 17, 2018 22:00:57 GMT
This is your god now.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Porter on Jun 17, 2018 22:55:07 GMT
Dave, I have to say that the middle section of what you posted seems to flow pretty well. But the rest? I don't know. Might be a little hard to swallow.
The problem with notes, as I see it, is that our music seems to be full of them. Personally, I can't seem to get away from them.
It's not just a question of what notes we use, but also where we use them. You can spread a G chord out across the string section. What note of the chord you choose to put on top can change the flavor of an entire section of music. To me thirds in low brass just sound muddy. Yes, notes matter.
I wouldn't pretend to be on the same level as any of you guys. I joined .ning just to see if anyone would throw up after hearing my stuff. There were some who hit me pretty hard. I know enough to know when someone just doesn't like my style, or is really interested.
|
|
|
Post by Mike Hewer on Jun 18, 2018 7:08:49 GMT
LOL Bob, I too quite liked the runs but the scoring at the top end wasn't bright enough. Enclosing should from now on be known as Sandwiching. John, I can see that twinkle in your eye from here. Having read through the thread, I must agree with all of you. I took that decision to not critique because I did not want to be seen as too much of a hatchet job and make it too personal - criticising self evident technical errors seemed the best approach. In many cases I could've gone on even more than I did but at some point I felt a state of diminishing returns would occur. Also, focusing on the self evident meant I did not have to actually like the music in order to be 'helpful'. I agree though that a failure in communication from a listeners pov is probably down to poor 'personal' choice or ability and a lack of technique. I will qualify here that I am talking about concert music as opposed to media. For media critique, I'd wear a different hat. As to the wife issue, do what I do and dedicate your music to her, make her sit and listen and watch her feet start to shuffle after about 10 minutes. I do this so often that she has called my second symphony Foot Shuffler no 10 'The Interminable.'
|
|
|
Post by rayinstirling on Jun 18, 2018 9:14:23 GMT
What about the notes? I have no problem in highlighting where I think notes can be changed. Mainly this would be in their relative lengths (I love the odd dotted note) instead of a whole series of equally spaced rungs on a ladder. Another pet hate (dislike) is, lack of mordent use in lead lines. I love listening to twiddly bits but, I'd rather not give any critique at all unless I think the music presented is worth spending more time on.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Dexter on Jun 19, 2018 12:25:20 GMT
Yes, I wouldn't view changing the rhythm and length of notes to spice up a melody as too much of a change. After finishing a first draft, little tweaks to notes in that manner are almost always added.
Is there a difference between trill and mordent, Ray? It's a new term to me.
|
|
|
Post by rayinstirling on Jun 19, 2018 12:54:03 GMT
I think of trill as multiple twiddlies and mordent as just the one. Sorry about my highest order technical terminology :-)
|
|