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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 13, 2018 19:41:38 GMT
The cat video was really just a more civil way of saying "I don't entirely see the point." But then I've never found myself plagued by the apparent intonation issues of 12 EDO (this was news to me - minor 3rds are sharp??) or felt my expression through it was limited. From examples, I'm not hearing some great unlocking of possibility - just generally conventional music that occasionally dips into microtonality, sounding out of tune in the process! At best, it sounds like modal adventuring.
But this is music, so you do you.
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Post by fuguestate on Sept 13, 2018 20:55:21 GMT
I wouldn't call it "intonation issues", as though it were some sort of longstanding "problem" that needs to be fixed. 12EDO is a pretty reasonable compromise with the exact ratios of Just Intonation (i.e., the exact frequencies of the overtone series) that eliminates wolf intervals, thereby allowing free modulation from any key to any other key. Modern players have come to adapt to 12EDO accordingly, e.g., horn players know to either avoid using the 7th harmonic (which is badly "out of tune" with 12 EDO pitches) or to compensate by various techniques of bending the natural pitch upwards to match the 12 EDO pitch. (Incidentally, some more modern composers like Britten deliberately ask for the natural harmonic, like the example posted here recently that we debated about, which sounds "out of tune" to our 12EDO-accustomed ears, but which is actually what the natural overtone sounds like. So composers are well aware of the disparity between the ideals of 12 EDO and the harsh reality of "out-of-tune" overtones, and some of them may choose to exploit this for their own purposes.) And BTW, it's not the minor 3rd that's sharp, it's the major 3rd in 12 EDO that's sharp. It's not significantly so, but it does make major chords sound "brighter" than if you were to use the actual natural overtone for it. Incidentally, the minor 3rd in 12 EDO is somewhat flatter than the natural overtone, making minor chords sound "darker" or "sadder". These are things that you don't notice because the music around us is primarily based on 12 EDO, but there's definitely a subtle difference. As a guitar player, you've probably noticed that if you tune your strings exactly according to the overtones (e.g., touch the middle of the E string to get an A to tune the A string to, then use the resulting A string to tune the next string, etc.), the resulting tuning will sound slightly "out-of-tune" w.r.t. 12 EDO, because of the disparity between 12 EDO and the overtone series. So usually a compromise is made by slightly detuning the strings so that they line up with each other and with the 12 EDO based fret placements. But anyway, it's not so much that 12 EDO is "flawed" in some way that needs to be corrected, but that 19 EDO offers a closer match of certain intervals in the overtone series, and at the same time, by being a cyclic tuning (i.e., it allows free modulation between any two keys without the danger of wolf intervals), provides a much richer basis on which music can be constructed. There can never be an exact match unless you go full-out Just Intonation, which will also have the problem of wolf intervals that break the ability to modulate freely between keys. But 19EDO approximates certain natural overtones "better" than 12EDO, and at the same time provides an enriched system of pitches that also maps very nicely to existing notation. You can replicate the sound of the barbershop quartet's natural 7th, for example, without needing to go "outside the system" to get that natural overtone. Of course, most of the benefits of 19 EDO are unrealized if you just transcribe 12EDO music to it. As you said, it will just sound like traditional stuff with occasional "out-of-tune" sounds. Where it gets interesting is when you start writing stuff "natively" for 19EDO, taking advantage of the full range of pitches and keys in a way that cannot be done in 12EDO. I've only really just started to play with this, so I can't say I have any good examples yet, but in my WIP 19EDO fugue I already have a few things that are hard/impossible to do in 12EDO, and it's proving to be quite fun to play with. And just on a tangential note, 19EDO is one of a series of increasingly closer approximations to Just Intonation that still allows free modulation between keys. 12EDO is one of them, and 19EDO happens to be the "next best" approximation after 12EDO. The next scale that gets closer to JI is 31EDO. But having 31 notes in an octave, most of which would be almost imperceptibly close, seems to me to be a little impractical. I mean, just to notate 31 pitches per octave sounds like a major hurdle before you can feasibly perform music written for it! 19EDO seems like a good compromise between accuracy and practicality, being the "next best" after 12EDO that doesn't require an inordinate number of keys (or frets, or whatever) and a brand new notation system just to be able to play. There are other EDO tunings that lie between 12, 19, and 31, of course, but they generally have intervals that are poorer approximations of JI, so they tend to have an inherent "out-of-tune" sound to them. For some people, maybe that's what rocks their boat, but for me, I still cherish my (approximately) JI intervals to anchor my music in. (And of course, there's also the wild wild west of non-EDO tunings... I'm not sure I'm ready to explore that yet, not before I get my bearings with 19EDO first.)
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Post by Bob Porter on Sept 13, 2018 22:35:10 GMT
I think there may be something wrong with your guitar.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Sept 14, 2018 9:51:25 GMT
As a guitar player, you've probably noticed that if you tune your strings exactly according to the overtones (e.g., touch the middle of the E string to get an A to tune the A string to, then use the resulting A string to tune the next string, etc.), the resulting tuning will sound slightly "out-of-tune" w.r.t. 12 EDO, because of the disparity between 12 EDO and the overtone series. So usually a compromise is made by slightly detuning the strings so that they line up with each other and with the 12 EDO based fret placements. Yes, but that seems more of a consequence of specific physical function overriding theoretical accuracy. These issues, in my experience, are peculiar to guitars and similar instruments - other methods have risen to get around them, for those players who find it insupportable. Fanned frets or true temperament frets, etc. In my experience, fresh strings and ensuring the string saddles aren't messing with intonation covers most of it. As it happens, I find tuning with harmonics (say 5th fret E and 7th fret A) - which I assume is what you're describing - more accurate than the traditional method. As far as I can tell, the music I found was mostly native and written specifically for it. My sentimental and traditional mind assumes this system hasn't survived, or at least proliferated, because the majority of people simply react badly to it on some physiological level. Myself included, natch.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Sept 14, 2018 14:03:45 GMT
Dave, (Apologies if you know this already).... If you want to know more (and you may not ), check out Logics Project settings (under the dropdown menu 'File' on the top bar and select tuning). Load in a piano on exs24, record in a scale. For playback, go to the tuning window and change from equal tempered to fixed and then try some of the presets to hear the difference - it really is quite interesting, especially the further east you go. I would love the Hermode tuning to work with Kontakt to enhance the realism of mock-ups. It works with VSL.
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Post by fuguestate on Sept 14, 2018 15:35:46 GMT
Dave Dexter: I'd say the reason people "react badly to it" is simply good old fear of the unknown, because our ears are just saturated with 12EDO music, so anything else is bound to sound strange and "out-of-tune". Just as someone who appreciates, say, Indian classical music would also find 12EDO music strange and "out-of-tune". But hey, this is music, and as Mike likes to say, there's no accounting for taste. So if this isn't for you, I'm not going to twist your arm and insist you listen to it. You might like my WIP 19EDO fugue, though. For reasons I won't divulge just yet, but assuming I manage to make it to the end, I think you'll like the result. (Though right now I'm at a slight impasse... nothing specific to 19EDO, just good old "where do I go from here" that composers face every now and then.)
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Post by Mike Hewer on Sept 14, 2018 15:47:01 GMT
I look forward to your fugue Teoh, especially the spelling.
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Post by fuguestate on Sept 14, 2018 17:53:41 GMT
Mike Hewer: Ah, don't expect too much. I've actually been struggling with the spelling. Initially, I just went with the simple single-accidental straight transcription, but as I went on, I realized that it was introducing too many natural signs all over the score, so I started using double sharps and double flats (interpreted as 2/19 steps, so that Cx = Db and Ebb = D#) where they would have reduced the number of accidentals required -- usually when the melodic line dips down by 1/19 as an ornamental gesture. But then I began to run into cases where triple accidentals would be required, e.g., if I wanted to sharpen notes in A# minor (which in 19EDO is distinct from Bb minor). But my notation software doesn't support triple accidentals, and besides, it would be rather hard to read. So now my score is a messy mixture of double sharps where I could write them, and single accidentals where I could not. Perhaps I should just go back to the single-accidental-only convention I started with. Anyway, I just finished the exposition, and am struggling over how to continue. I jumped into this too fast without thinking things through, so even though I'm quite proud of the way the exposition turned out, I'm at a loss for ideas as to how to continue. Already wrote 2-3 very different continuations, none of which quite "hits the spot" yet. If my experience with writing Exuberance was anything to go by, it could be months before I hit upon the right idea. I really need to start taking Bernstein's advice to heart and come up with a system of slogging through passages when inspiration takes a vacation. My current idea is to start using your melodic/motivic development techniques... except this will be my first time consciously doing it, so I'm a little shaky on how exactly this works in practice. Do you just randomly pick out different motifs from the preceding melody, manipulate them, generate a few possibilities, then pick the best-sounding one? Or is there a more principled approach that might provide a clue as to which motifs / generation methods might be a more promising direction than others?
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Post by Mike Hewer on Sept 15, 2018 12:55:45 GMT
Re the spelling Teoh, are you concerned about harmonic equivalence (for modulation) and accuracy in spelling? If not, why not settle on a clear, unambiguous way of spelling each note and stick with it? In effect you'd be giving 19EDO a sort of key signature by keeping the spelling of each note the same, regardless of voice leading or harmonic function. Or alternatively, perhaps you could apply the 'accidental applies to the one note only' principle. It might admittedly lead to some strange spellings but then again 19EDO is not 12EDO and it might encourage a more daring way of writing.
Re motivic development, I'd suggest you break the theme into musically sensible, logical and small manageable chunks to start with and put them through their paces in as many ways as you can. This can be via passage/sequential work, augmentation/diminution, widening (and compressing) of intervals, creating vertical structures from the notes, creating scales from the notes, rhythmic changes to create more or less impetus and so on. There is no correct way here but you are limited by your imagination and any lack of adventure to a certain extent. I often talk about instinct being underpinned by technique but initially, let the technique take point and lead you at this exploratory stage . Eventually you will hit a moment that resonates within, once that happens go further in that direction if you need to.
Remember technique used in this manner is a search tool - you still have to make what you find musical, but at that stage the find itself will inspire and propel you forward with further ideas and even more exploratory paths. Soon enough it all starts to feel right and inevitable and you have gained deep insights into the potential of your material. The thing you must not do imo is wait around for inspiration. Working with technique opens the door for inspiration.
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Post by gx on Sept 15, 2018 16:54:14 GMT
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Post by fuguestate on Sept 17, 2018 14:53:27 GMT
Mike Hewer: yeah, waiting for inspiration (aka procrastination) is my downfall. I have folders of it in the form of unfinished pieces. If I master your technique, maybe one of these days I'll revisit some of those old sketches and flesh them out.
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