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Post by Dave Dexter on Aug 24, 2018 22:42:45 GMT
(Reminds me of the video you posted on Ning once, of an orchestra that played certain notes "out of tune". I'm pretty sure that was a deliberate effect on the part of the music, not a glaring blunder by the orchestra players.) The session orchestra? As far as I recall, I still maintain they just weren't that good and those suspect notes were fluffs and intonation issues - otherwise they'd be charging a lot more for their services!
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Post by fuguestate on Aug 24, 2018 22:47:14 GMT
If you had heard the Britten excerpt in isolation, without knowing it was Britten, and without being able to hear other ensembles play the same passage, wouldn't you also say that those suspect notes were wrong notes too?
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Post by driscollmusick on Aug 24, 2018 22:49:01 GMT
You mean F sounding Bb? Written C (sounding F) above the staff is extremely high. I wouldn't recommend it. I mean written C above the staff, sounding F at the top of the staff. Yes I know it's extremely high. I'm exploring alternative ways of instrumenting that passage. One possibility is to just transpose the passage an octave down and forego the high-horn sound. But there may be other approaches. You wrote: "did the soloist in the youtube video play the F (sounding C) out-of-tune?" A written F is a sounding Bb, so I wasn't sure what note you were talking about. I don't think any serious musician is intentionally playing Britten out of tune.
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Post by driscollmusick on Aug 24, 2018 22:59:50 GMT
Thanks again! Hooray for dodgy samples not meant for public consumption... not that fast, but it'll be a prominent note and that's where they'll waver, if they're going to. I've seen a few live horn fluffs in lower ranges, albeit in more difficult parts, so I'm not assuming a perfect first run. A reasonable option might be to have just the 1st and 3rd (high) players tackle it. I think it would be just as prominent and far less likely to be flubbed.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Aug 24, 2018 23:15:59 GMT
If you had heard the Britten excerpt in isolation, without knowing it was Britten, and without being able to hear other ensembles play the same passage, wouldn't you also say that those suspect notes were wrong notes too? That's exactly what I did do, with Britten, but that doesn't mean an orchestra - especially an amateur one - is incapable of producing mistakes, just because a proportion of music is written deliberately to sound wrong, or subvert expectation, or operate under a looser harmonic structure, or simply be dissonant. Hell, I've had similar instances of intonation and flubs in finished recordings presented to me. I've heard mistakes in the finished, professional recordings of others - both performance and session.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Aug 24, 2018 23:16:40 GMT
Thanks again! Hooray for dodgy samples not meant for public consumption... not that fast, but it'll be a prominent note and that's where they'll waver, if they're going to. I've seen a few live horn fluffs in lower ranges, albeit in more difficult parts, so I'm not assuming a perfect first run. A reasonable option might be to have just the 1st and 3rd (high) players tackle it. I think it would be just as prominent and far less likely to be flubbed. It's a supporting part so that makes a lot of sense.
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Post by fuguestate on Aug 24, 2018 23:34:08 GMT
[...] You wrote: "did the soloist in the youtube video play the F (sounding C) out-of-tune?" A written F is a sounding Bb, so I wasn't sure what note you were talking about. I don't think any serious musician is intentionally playing Britten out of tune. Argh, I made a typo and then misunderstood your question. Double strike for me. Yes, it's written F, sounding Bb not C, in the 4th bar of your posted excerpt under "poco accel". My bad. It sounds strangely out-of-tune with the rest of the notes. Same goes for the highest note (A above staff, sounding D): it sounds somewhere between a major 2nd and a minor 3rd from the next note (written G, sounding C), as opposed to a "pure" major 2nd as one might expect. If Dave is correct that other ensembles play this passage the same way, then either it's a deliberate effect, or an inherent property of those particular notes on the horn, or something's wrong with my ears.
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Post by Mike Hewer on Aug 25, 2018 5:22:14 GMT
Britten specifies the player to use the natural harmonics only for the Prologue, hence the tuning.
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Post by fuguestate on Aug 25, 2018 15:38:04 GMT
Britten specifies the player to use the natural harmonics only for the Prologue, hence the tuning. Aha! So it was a deliberate effect, and a natural harmonic that's "out-of-tune". I'm glad to know it's not my ears deteriorating from age!
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Post by Mike Hewer on Aug 25, 2018 15:46:30 GMT
Britten specifies the player to use the natural harmonics only for the Prologue, hence the tuning. Aha! So it was a deliberate effect, and a natural harmonic that's "out-of-tune". I'm glad to know it's not my ears deteriorating from age! Pardon.....
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Post by Dave Dexter on Aug 25, 2018 17:01:18 GMT
Britten specifies the player to use the natural harmonics only for the Prologue, hence the tuning. Brass balls on that man.
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Post by driscollmusick on Aug 25, 2018 18:05:54 GMT
Britten specifies the player to use the natural harmonics only for the Prologue, hence the tuning. Brass balls on that man. D'oh! Mad props, Mike. But, Dave, is this really the right metaphor?
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Post by Dave Dexter on Aug 25, 2018 19:57:32 GMT
D'oh! Mad props, Mike. But, Dave, is this really the right metaphor? BRASS. BALLS.
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Post by Tim Marko on Aug 28, 2018 1:42:01 GMT
Dave, I'd be inclined to be more concerned with what is happening harmonically to support the horns d(A). The passage leads to the d coming from a Bmaj triad and the leap takes it to the lowered 3rd(?). If the harmonic movement makes sense, it shouldn't be a problem but John's idea of going to octaves in the horns will lend a great deal of support to the 2 players going to the d(A). Once heard in context, the players should be able to manage.
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Post by Dave Dexter on Aug 28, 2018 9:12:04 GMT
Dave, I'd be inclined to be more concerned with what is happening harmonically to support the horns d(A). The passage leads to the d coming from a Bmaj triad and the leap takes it to the lowered 3rd(?). If the harmonic movement makes sense, it shouldn't be a problem but John's idea of going to octaves in the horns will lend a great deal of support to the 2 players going to the d(A). Once heard in context, the players should be able to manage. I haven't decided on octaves yet - it's a simple enough thing to change in session if needed, or to cut horns 2/4 if it overpowers the string melody, which is the main thing. Harmonically - I attached the score excerpt if you're interested. SB excerpt.pdf (151.97 KB) b13-16 is the pertinent section. Oh, it's so lydian. I happened to hear another example of high horns in a Harry Potter film the other day - - which holds a semitone higher. I should stop worrying.
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